Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Would you be concerned... 4 year old "trans"

115 replies

Ncdforthisagain · 12/05/2023 23:03

Not sure I'm posting in the right place but would welcome advice as something that is sitting very uncomfortably with me.

I met a mum recently through mutual friends at a kids activity class. She seemed nice enough and very friendly and chatty. Her son is 5 and he is a lovely child. He was wearing a sparkly top and clip on earrings the first few times I met them - all good, he's only 5 and who am I to judge. However his mum dropped very casually in conversation that she thinks he has "trans issues". Again, I thought it was a bit of an odd comment but kept that thought to myself. More recently though, it now appears that the mum has transitioned the child to living as a girl, has changed his name and is actively referring to the child as her "daughter", "she" etc. The child is so young and it just strikes me as terribly damaging to do this to a tiny child. I have 2 young DC myself and I'm actually reeling that a parent could willingly do this. I'm prepared to get shot down (maybe unlikely on this board) but it just has my alarm bells ringing.

OP posts:
DobbysTeaCosy · 13/05/2023 08:54

ThreeLocusts · 13/05/2023 08:43

Thanks that's very useful background and well explained. Nice username too!

It's striking that more boys get pushed into girliness than the other way around, from anecdotal info on here.

Could that be simply because girls 'wanting to be boys'(I.e.trying out a masculine identity, not dreaming of surgery!) is comprehensible as an act of 'reaching' (for higher social status) whereas boys acting girly 'identify downwards' so to speak?
Sex hierarchy must be at play somewhere.

OP I'd try to gently question the mum's decisions using some of the info on here. But be prepared to get terfified...

If suggest it's something to do that a 'tomboy' girl is seen as desirable and acceptable (probably due to misogyny)
So blue girls clothes are widely available. Girls clothes with dinosaurs and trucks can also be sourced.
But boys clothes with even a hint of pink, or 'gendered animals' like cats, rabbits and mice are basically not there. So parents have to either dress them from the boys section or the girls section, but either way they end up very much 'coded' by gender.
For example, I dress my son in all clothes, all colours but in 'boy cuts'. I've. T shirts and trousers for comfort. Without fail, everytime he wears pink or yellow he gets misgendered. Even if everything else he is wearing is traditionally 'boy' coloured. This will be subconsciously sending the message pink is for girls, blue is for boys.
So when he picks that message up (he hasn't yet, but likely will from nursery soon) he will either lean into boy things, because he likes his identity as a boy, or he will lean into girl things and wrongly conclude he'll become a sister.
This has always happened but in the past adults didn't agree that you can change sex. Children were either left to explore or had the 'gay' beaten out of them. Most often parents were comfortable with girls being masculine, that's why so many of us were allowed to be tomboys. Because of toxic masculinity and homophobia boys were never quite afforded that freedom and now the 'trans' path gives them a way to explore that, but it is obviously a very damaging path.

Basically, we need to not tolerate sexism because that's how we have ended up here, with 'trans kids' offered up on the alter of stereotypes.

ThreeLocusts · 13/05/2023 08:43

DobbysTeaCosy · 13/05/2023 07:15

FFS that stupid mother. Children of around 3-5 go through what's been termed a 'gender schema'. It's where they obviously notice all the stereotype pushed at them and coincides with them understanding that they are a boy or girl but have not developed the idea that it is fixed.
Anyway the following happens. Some children go stereotype associated with their sex crazy(I did this) some go stereotype associated with the opposite sex crazy. Some dip into both.
None of these children are trans. These are children trying to make sense of stereotypes in a world of absolutes. These are the same children that dropped all the objects they could find to check they still fell. They're testing the world. It's not their fault we divided the world into pink and blue and thus it looks like an absolute.
Anyway, gender schema like all schemas tends to end around the time children realise sex is fixed. They then tend to just go for things their peers like or that they like. Again, some boys will like sparkles at this age. Nothing trans about it. Humans like sparkly things. Some girls will like blue and climbing trees. Not trans, just personally/developmental stages.
Your friend is either stupid, attention seeking muschensons by proxi or just taken in by trans knowledge because she has never questioned stereotypes.
I'd be vocal about the above. Ten years ago this would have been considered child abuse and still is by those of us who remember that safeguarding is a thing and children are children. Sadly, the very people who should be challenging this are batshit too, so the best you can do is challenge yourself.
Try hard not to call her a fucking idiot though. Fucking idiots object to that.

Thanks that's very useful background and well explained. Nice username too!

It's striking that more boys get pushed into girliness than the other way around, from anecdotal info on here.

Could that be simply because girls 'wanting to be boys'(I.e.trying out a masculine identity, not dreaming of surgery!) is comprehensible as an act of 'reaching' (for higher social status) whereas boys acting girly 'identify downwards' so to speak?
Sex hierarchy must be at play somewhere.

OP I'd try to gently question the mum's decisions using some of the info on here. But be prepared to get terfified...

Badgeringabout · 13/05/2023 08:34

Munchausen's by Proxy or simple abuse. So many mothers push this cruelty.

Quisto · 13/05/2023 08:19

My son was at a school nursery with a boy who had become a girl by yr 1. 🙄. Age 11 that looked like wearing pink sparkly boots, having long hair and running away from spiders, screaming. ( According to my son). I'm told there are a few older trans kids in the Senior school, all boys. This is Cornwall though, institutionally captured and proud producer of The Trans Student booklet circa 2012. All you can do is tell your children the truth about biological sex etc and tell them they can't actually say anything about it at school.

Noseylittlemoo · 13/05/2023 08:13

When I was growing up late 80s/early 90s a lot of boys had a hairstyle with a step/wedge. I really liked the style and had it cut like that myself. I also went through a grungy phase wearing dungarees and army surplus wear and I was quite often mistaken for a boy. I knew I wasn't and didn't want to be - I just liked those styles. Now days I'm still not especially feminine , rarely wear make up and prefer jeans/sportswear. But it really scares me to think that if that had been now, someone would probably have been persuaded that maybe I wasn't supposed to be a girl? I was older than the child in this instance - probably started about 11. But always a people pleaser it frightens me that "experts" might have convinced me I was meant to be a boy!

MrsOvertonsWindow · 13/05/2023 08:03

Great comments from everyone - especially DobbysTeaCosy. Flowers
In the face of so much batshittery around this issue, I will work hard to remember this particular bit of advice:
Try hard not to call her a fucking idiot though. Fucking idiots object to that.

ladygindiva · 13/05/2023 07:59

ArcticSkewer · 12/05/2023 23:21

Just ignore her, she is obviously nuts.

One of my boys was full - pink, dresses, sparkles - at that age. I just thought he might grow up gay. Ah the innocence of the early 2000s .

He's actually a straight man these days.

Yup, best mates son loved pink and putting on her make up etc18 now, off to uni, got a girlfriend, very much a lad, very happy. So glad she let him do these things without labelling him.

WeAreOnTheRoadToNowhere · 13/05/2023 07:58

Years ago a neighbour of mine tried to bring up her son as a girl. She had 5 boys and was desperate for a girl. The 6th boy was dressed in typical girl clothes and given a female name. SS got involved
Now she would be hailed as a hero. Its child abuse. You are either male or female and it's cruel to let a child believe a special, inner essence makes them the opposite sex

bellinisurge · 13/05/2023 07:55

My nephew was like this. Thankfully it was before this madness caught hold. He is a happily married adult gay man with a lovely husband.
Not saying it's easy for a very effeminate boy, or that it has ever been. It's very hard to stay under bullies' radar. But with love and support, a life as a happy gay man should be his future.
I fear for what this mania will do to him. His parents need to grow the fuck up.

DobbysTeaCosy · 13/05/2023 07:52

DidyouNO · 13/05/2023 07:48

At 5 my son liked to pretend to be a cat and drink milk from a saucer. Why can't kids be kids anymore. And why is no one stepping in to help. Pandering to this nonsense is so damaging.

Because those lower down have their hands tied and those who should be stopping it are encouraging it.
See the thread about the teacher sacked for raising safeguarding concerns.

DidyouNO · 13/05/2023 07:48

At 5 my son liked to pretend to be a cat and drink milk from a saucer. Why can't kids be kids anymore. And why is no one stepping in to help. Pandering to this nonsense is so damaging.

FrancescaContini · 13/05/2023 07:36

@DobbysTeaCosy says it all. The mother is a fucking idiot.

DobbysTeaCosy · 13/05/2023 07:36

SavvyWavvy · 13/05/2023 07:25

Brilliant post @DobbysTeaCosy. The problem is that the parents doing this to their children are not open to any kind of discussion or debate. They are adamant that their decision is the right one.

Sadly I know this from butter experience. There are also so many of us working for establishments that have embedded trans mythology. Until they rediscover common sense and safeguarding we are powerless to let our views widely known, but the trans myths are allowed to multiply and flourish, anyone who challenges them silenced.
I've lost so much respect for adults like this I know, supposedly intelligent people, but part of it is the way this ideology has been allowed to take hold. We all have responsibility to parent and not blindly follow trends though.

SunnyEgg · 13/05/2023 07:33

Lying to impressionable children, telling them you can change sex, it's so wrong, especially at age 5 when they're so unable to understand.

Dobby makes good points as do pp

It’s really bad to lie in this way

MagpiePi · 13/05/2023 07:33

If you see the mother again you could say lots of stuff along the lines of ‘my child (or child I know) was convinced they were a cat/train/ dinosaur. Aren’t they funny and it’s a relief they grow out of this kind of thing.’

MissingMoominMamma · 13/05/2023 07:32

My friend’s five year old son will very openly say, “I’m a boy, and I like wearing dresses.”

Because my friend is a good mum.

SavvyWavvy · 13/05/2023 07:25

Brilliant post @DobbysTeaCosy. The problem is that the parents doing this to their children are not open to any kind of discussion or debate. They are adamant that their decision is the right one.

DobbysTeaCosy · 13/05/2023 07:15

FFS that stupid mother. Children of around 3-5 go through what's been termed a 'gender schema'. It's where they obviously notice all the stereotype pushed at them and coincides with them understanding that they are a boy or girl but have not developed the idea that it is fixed.
Anyway the following happens. Some children go stereotype associated with their sex crazy(I did this) some go stereotype associated with the opposite sex crazy. Some dip into both.
None of these children are trans. These are children trying to make sense of stereotypes in a world of absolutes. These are the same children that dropped all the objects they could find to check they still fell. They're testing the world. It's not their fault we divided the world into pink and blue and thus it looks like an absolute.
Anyway, gender schema like all schemas tends to end around the time children realise sex is fixed. They then tend to just go for things their peers like or that they like. Again, some boys will like sparkles at this age. Nothing trans about it. Humans like sparkly things. Some girls will like blue and climbing trees. Not trans, just personally/developmental stages.
Your friend is either stupid, attention seeking muschensons by proxi or just taken in by trans knowledge because she has never questioned stereotypes.
I'd be vocal about the above. Ten years ago this would have been considered child abuse and still is by those of us who remember that safeguarding is a thing and children are children. Sadly, the very people who should be challenging this are batshit too, so the best you can do is challenge yourself.
Try hard not to call her a fucking idiot though. Fucking idiots object to that.

Charley50 · 13/05/2023 07:03

Next time you see the mum you could tell her that just because a boy like pink and glitter or whatever, it doesn't make him a girl. Tell her how damaging it is to him. She needs to know that what she is doing is abuse (maybe don't use that word) and the people can see she is damaging her poor child. Don't stay silent. You have nothing to lose.

SavvyWavvy · 13/05/2023 07:01

I could have written this exact post OP. There is a mum who lives near me who has a 4 year old boy that she has decided is a girl just because he likes dresses and things that society deems “girly”. She now refers to him as a girl and has changed his name to something that she considers gender neutral.

She has a referral to Tavistock (or whatever it’s now called) after threatening to sue her GP if they didn’t refer. Her GP also referred her to social services! She’s desperate to get him on the waiting list for hormone treatment.

It’s child cruelty at its worst. What she’s trying to inflict on this poor boy is a lifetime of hardship.

dimorphism · 13/05/2023 06:56

(I e. At the developmental stage Jazz was at when first taking blockers)

dimorphism · 13/05/2023 06:54

The surgeon quite openly discusses how children who have their puberty blocked when Jazz did can never experience sexual pleasure. None of them.

dimorphism · 13/05/2023 06:52

Lying to impressionable children, telling them you can change sex, it's so wrong, especially at age 5 when they're so unable to understand.

If you can manage OP, watch the Jazz Jennings show bit about surgery. No one should be put on a path to puberty blockers and surgery at 5 and social transition does that.

Jazz couldn't possibly come out now and want to detransition, the surgery is irreversible, the effects of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones are irreversible and the family's wealth relies on Jazz bring trans. But when you see the surgery complications being discussed and you see the face of Jazz's father in particular, the surgeon talking about how experimental it all is. It's horrifying.

Nellodee · 13/05/2023 06:39

But it’s not about stereotypes…

Safxxx · 12/05/2023 23:58

Seems like the mother wanted a girl not a boy, it's not the child's fault it's her turning him into her 🤦🏻‍♀️ she's sick in the head, full of fantasies, I feel sorry for the boy 😞