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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Sex not gender, No Outsiders changing the Equality Act, DepHead/DSL captured

736 replies

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 12:51

Well, here we are, with a whole new thread!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4713725-please-help-gender-not-sex-on-a-school-protected-characteristics-poster-just-spoken-to-the-head?page=10&reply=123546552

Thank you all, so so much for the support you have given me.

I am currently working on the draft of the message I want to send.

Long story short, DD's primary school displays posters by No Outsiders, showing the 9 protected characteristics of the Equality Act. Sex as been replaced with gender.

I have raised this with the Head, the assistant Head, and the Deputy Head (DepHead, as DH just doesn't work here). I have been reassured that sex is synonymous with gender in law, and, through an email stream, No Outsiders have reassured the school that it is deliberate, gender is easier to teach children than sex, especially as some will snigger at sex.

Oh, and teaching that gender is the difference between boys and girls, it makes it easier to then explain gender reassignment later on.

I'll put the message from the DepHead and No Outsiders here, and also my reply, in its current state.

Thank you all again!

OP posts:
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Catiette · 07/02/2024 20:46

Totally agree and get where you're coming from, Veb. Also, did think you'd almost certainly read & analysed everything with a fine toothcomb already - it sounds like you & your team have been amazing. It's just so frustrating...

Boiledbeetle · 07/02/2024 20:46

I am of no use on school matters but I shall do my pom pom waving!

That's a good letter!

Happy Dance GIF by Molang
Original poster
Vebrithien · 07/02/2024 20:38

Thank you, we've got a folder where all possible evidence and research is being saved. We've all read the proposed guidance, and feel that it is largely appropriate.

I agree that there are ways and means of addressing the GI that could be appropriate and questioning. Our concerns is that this resource was picked especially for LGBTQ+ History Month, and parents were not informed (as promised last year). So far, there hasn't been a single resource used on anything LGB.

We feel betrayed.

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dunBle · 07/02/2024 20:34

Oh no Veb, that's so frustrating. Do you have any contact with the Parent Governors in case you don't get any joy with the head?

Catiette · 07/02/2024 20:16

Oh, also:

4. Schools and colleges have specific legal duties that are framed by a child’s biological sex. While legislation exists that allows adults to go through a process to change their legal sex, children’s legal sex is always the same as their biological sex.

So acknowledging biological sex - being utterly transparent about it & ensuring there's no confusion - is surely fundamental.

Questions may be the way forward as first steps: how was gender identity defined? do students understand biological sex? did the teacher make it clear that transition is a complex undertaking? etc.

Catiette · 07/02/2024 20:13

So sorry to hear this is ongoing.

Just a thought - I'm sure it's occurred already - but you may find the interim guidance, if not directly relevant (its focus is managing social transitioning in schools), then at least useful:

https://consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/supportingdocuments/Gender%20Questioning%20Children%20%20nonstatutory%20guidance.pdf

My (very limited) understanding is that schools may well reference gender identity as a belief some people hold, & that gender reassignment is, of course, a protected characteristic, so entirely valid to address. Whether or not with those age groups is a different matter, of course!

However, the guidance makes it very clear indeed that this is a complex issue needing extremely careful handling.

A few useful quotes from it, to support the argument that these subjects need to be handled very carefully, from a fully informed & balanced perspective...:

  • a highly sensitive, complex issue, which is still not properly understood
  • Gender identity: is a contested belief. It is a sense a person may have of their own gender, whether male, female or another category such as non-binary. This may or may not be the same as their biological sex. Many people do not consider that they or others have a gender identity at all.
  • Many people believe this concept is one that reinforces stereotypes and social norms relating to sex.
  • The Cass Review’s interim report is clear that social transition is not a neutral act, and that better information is needed about the outcomes for children who undertake degrees of social transition... Some forms of social transition will not be compatible with schools’ and colleges’ statutory responsibilities. [an important context to any potentially reductive presentation of transitioning in fiction - I've sat in a presentation in which a "professional" blithely told children of about 11, "Well, of course, nowadays we can choose which sex we want to be!" without any further contextualisation].
  • Schools and colleges should not proactively initiate action towards a child’s social transition.

Your utterly infuriating circumstances aside, my feeling about teaching these issues in general is that what matters is how it's presented to the kids. The difficulty is that, currently, anything's possible. A book like this could be taught with a very concerning message of, "Well, anyone can be a boy or a girl regardless of their body - you just choose, and can even have medicine to help you when you're older!" (really not so unrealistic, given that I've witnessed a "professional" blithely telling a group of 11-year-olds, without any further context, "Well, of course, we can choose what sex we are nowadays"). Or maybe it's been accompanied by a more sensible, "Some people believe... and we should treat them with respect..." BUT the fact is that even this more nuanced latter quietly pushes unquestioning affirmation, when a child has a right to their own perception of reality and a need to differentiate the sexes!, shows just how damn complex this is.

Your agreements re: communication from school represented their acknowledgement of this - and if they've reneged on actual guarantees relating to this, that's really not on.

Hope the above helps in investigating & countering any waffle directed at your group or the kids!

https://consult.education.gov.uk/equalities-political-impartiality-anti-bullying-team/gender-questioning-children-proposed-guidance/supporting_documents/Gender%20Questioning%20Children%20%20nonstatutory%20guidance.pdf

WarriorN · 07/02/2024 20:02

We're trying to dig a bit deeper into what the year 5 parents are saying about their children being told by the school to keep their lessons secret.

That part is extremely concerning if it is true.

dimorphism · 07/02/2024 19:58

@Vebrithien I'm so sorry to hear this - I think there must be an activist teacher. The breach of safeguarding is really concerning. Generally speaking, children don't just make up that an adult's told them to keep secrets out of nowhere.

Unfortunately I think you said the governors were captured? But nevertheless, I'd go straight to governors if the HT doesn't address your legitimate concerns.

Apart from anything else, GC belief is protected under the EA 2010 and this has been repeatedly proven in a court of law, so I don't really understand how they think they can only teach one side even if the EA 2010 was the only game in town, which when it comes to children it shouldn't be.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 07/02/2024 18:55

There are more of us complaining, than last time.

4 parents from year 4 were added to the resistance today.

We're trying to dig a bit deeper into what the year 5 parents are saying about their children being told by the school to keep their lessons secret.

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LoveIceland · 07/02/2024 17:58

I am so angry and appalled on your behalf. Good luck continuing the good fight and keep us up to speed

Original poster
Vebrithien · 07/02/2024 17:52

Thanks @ZestFest

I really don't know.

There is a male NB teaching assistant using the title Mx

The DepHead seems pretty dedicated to the cause. We had wondered if she has reason (outside of school) to not be impartial, which might be driving it? She is the curriculum lead.

I did also wonder (from the experiences I have in the staffroom myself) if there isn't an element of "poor, benighted, ignorant fools, we know SO much better than you do"

The SLT seem so defensive, and seems to so actively want to isolate us and ignore any issues.

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ZestFest · 07/02/2024 17:43

Oh what a disappointment. Is it one member of staff driving this? There's clearly an agenda here.
Your email is very polite and I really hope the Head gets back to you with some positive updates.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 07/02/2024 17:37

"Dear Head,

We are e-mailing to follow up from our discussion with the school last year on how gender is taught at (name of school) and parental communication. We had understood from the meeting that gender identity beliefs were not actively taught at (name of school) and had felt reassured that the school was committed to actively sharing the resources used to teach RSE with parents.

We were therefore surprised when one of us, as a Year 4 parent, received a message that the book ‘She’s My Dad’ had been used as a teaching resource in reading comprehension this term. We are concerned that this specific book teaches gender identity as fact not belief (for example using a glossary likely to be interpreted by children as factual) and also reinforces harmful gender stereotypes in which being female is defined by stereotypically feminine outward appearance, clothes and personal grooming.

But our greater concern is the lack of transparency until after the fact. We had understood that gender identity was not being taught at the school, and we would have expected that the introduction of materials teaching gender identity beliefs would have been shared in advance with parents. We are disappointed that the commitments last year have not been met and would like to understand how this has happened to rebuild our trust in the school, so that we can work together to make the school a better place for all of the children.

We support the school in encouraging children to celebrate diversity and to be polite and respectful to everybody. We would like to work with the school to help do this in a way that protects the equally valid beliefs of children who do and who do not believe in gender identity, with dignity and respect for all - we would like to hear your thoughts on the best way forward for this."

Love, 10 parents!

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GrumpyPanda · 07/02/2024 17:16

Ugh.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 07/02/2024 16:31

Hoping to have emailed the school be the end of the day.

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WarriorN · 07/02/2024 15:57

Bloody hell veb that's shocking.

I've said for a long time it's not just RSE and pshe sessions; literacy is a big area where all these LGBTq money spinning books can be brought in and read to or with the class.

HagoftheNorth · 07/02/2024 15:35

That’s grim Veb. Good luck

Original poster
Vebrithien · 07/02/2024 15:06

SinnerBoy · 07/02/2024 15:01

Vebrithien · Today 14:37

He was warned by parents in year 5, that the children are being told that they need to keep what they learn about gender identity in RSE lessons, a secret from their parents.

Surely that's illegal? At the very least, it's a huge breach of safeguarding.

Good luck to you and your colleagues in dealing further with the mendacious shit.

Yes, this is what I am trying to find out.

Everything I have found so far is about a member of staff not being able to promise to keep a secret. I can't find anything else about schools telling children to keep lesson content a secret.

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SinnerBoy · 07/02/2024 15:01

Vebrithien · Today 14:37

He was warned by parents in year 5, that the children are being told that they need to keep what they learn about gender identity in RSE lessons, a secret from their parents.

Surely that's illegal? At the very least, it's a huge breach of safeguarding.

Good luck to you and your colleagues in dealing further with the mendacious shit.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 07/02/2024 14:49

Yes @Boiledbeetle , they really are.

We have two parents who are just about ready to withdraw their children from the school, over this.

The school has completely broken our trust.

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Boiledbeetle · 07/02/2024 14:41

They are complete shits aren't they!

Original poster
Vebrithien · 07/02/2024 14:37

Our resistance group has a handful of new members.

One, only recently moved to the area. He was warned by parents in year 5, that the children are being told that they need to keep what they learn about gender identity in RSE lessons, a secret from their parents.

I haven't heard this directly, and could easily imagine a teacher saying along the lines that "if anyone talks about something in these lessons, it shouldn't be shared further don't gossip"

But, if this was said, and the children have got the wrong end of the stick, that is worrying enough. The rules should also have been shared with parents

If the children are being told to keep the contents of their RSE lessons secret from their parents, this is massive.

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BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 07/02/2024 14:34

That's disappointing after they seemed to originally take things on board.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 07/02/2024 14:32

It is with a heavy heart that I return to these threads.

Turns out, the school lied to us.

We were promised that gender identity wasn't taught, if it did come up, it was clearly identified that it was a belief. We were also promised that any resources used, would be shared with parents before the date.

The school has been using "She's my dad" as their year 4 reading comprehension book, during LGBTQ+ history month. Intensively studied, every day for a week.

Parents only found out, after it had happened, it was mentioned in their weekly roundup.

No resources have been shared with us. The class teachers have refused to engage with our questions.

We are going to email our complaint. Going straight to the Head this time. Just as much about the breach of trust, as the hideous book used.

We all feel so sad, and let down.

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ScrollingLeaves · 20/06/2023 12:30

Well done!