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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex not gender, No Outsiders changing the Equality Act, DepHead/DSL captured

736 replies

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 12:51

Well, here we are, with a whole new thread!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4713725-please-help-gender-not-sex-on-a-school-protected-characteristics-poster-just-spoken-to-the-head?page=10&reply=123546552

Thank you all, so so much for the support you have given me.

I am currently working on the draft of the message I want to send.

Long story short, DD's primary school displays posters by No Outsiders, showing the 9 protected characteristics of the Equality Act. Sex as been replaced with gender.

I have raised this with the Head, the assistant Head, and the Deputy Head (DepHead, as DH just doesn't work here). I have been reassured that sex is synonymous with gender in law, and, through an email stream, No Outsiders have reassured the school that it is deliberate, gender is easier to teach children than sex, especially as some will snigger at sex.

Oh, and teaching that gender is the difference between boys and girls, it makes it easier to then explain gender reassignment later on.

I'll put the message from the DepHead and No Outsiders here, and also my reply, in its current state.

Thank you all again!

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Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 13:49

In the theme of our dear @Boiledbeetle

Incandescently angry.
Not just vexed, or annoyed.
We are beyond that.

We have left the livid shores, exasperated, sad.
Beyond the tempestuous seas, tumultuously tossed and turned.

We have arrived, sader and older, in the lands of white, hot fury.

We will not be silenced.
With dignity and respect.

WE WILL ENDURE.

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Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 13:30

And thank you @SinnerBoy your thoughts are very insightful.

We are not the problem, and do not wish to be cast as such.

We do have some "Peter" characters in the group, hot tempered and impetuous.

I present a calm persona in life, and rant and vent on here.

The virtue of a committee is that we modulate to an even keel.

And, the support here is wicked!

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ScrollingLeaves · 05/03/2024 13:09

SinnerBoy · 05/03/2024 11:47

Vebrithien · Today 11:24

Thanks SinnerBoy we are endeavouring to put our points across as politely and respectfully as possible, although we do not feel that we are being treated with respect in return.

From what you've written, I agree that they have been offhand and disrespectful to you and your colleagues, but it's imperative that you retain the moral high ground. The replies may even be calculated to provoke you into an intemperate response.

That is a good point.

Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 12:59

Happy to be a drip!

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Princessglittery · 05/03/2024 12:30

@Vebrithien good response. Just remember the drip drip of water eventually created the Grand Canyon. Polite, accurate balanced responses have the same impact but it is frustrating.

SinnerBoy · 05/03/2024 12:02

God for yous.

Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 11:58

Never send an email in anger or fear. Cold, hard reason pisses them off more.

As we are pretty much replying by committee, we are moderating our replies. We will not be intemperate.

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AmaryllisNightAndDay · 05/03/2024 11:54

Fantastic letter... very impressed by you and your group.

Suggestion for para 3. It is really two separate points - safeguarding,
and respect for beliefs. Beliefs have already been dealt with in point 1. So maybe stick with safeguarding?

"3. In the book a child is corrected (by adults? by other children?) for using male pronouns for their uncle. The message to children is that they must always use preferred pronouns. This is a safeguarding risk. It denies children the language to name physical reality and to describe someone as physically male or female. It may make children afraid to report situations that make them feel uncomfortable in case they use the "wrong" words, and it denies them the language they need to tell adults clearly what has happened.

How does the school ensure that encouraging children to accept
diversity and be polite and respectful also ensures that children have accurate
biological language and understanding for safeguarding?"

Good luck dealing with the deputy head's phone call! Very inappropriate and worth a separate complaint.

SinnerBoy · 05/03/2024 11:47

Vebrithien · Today 11:24

Thanks SinnerBoy we are endeavouring to put our points across as politely and respectfully as possible, although we do not feel that we are being treated with respect in return.

From what you've written, I agree that they have been offhand and disrespectful to you and your colleagues, but it's imperative that you retain the moral high ground. The replies may even be calculated to provoke you into an intemperate response.

ScrollingLeaves · 05/03/2024 11:31

Well done for writing such a clear letter outlining the reasons for your concerns while remaining so courteous.

Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 11:24

Thanks @SinnerBoy we are endeavouring to put our points across as politely and respectfully as possible, although we do not feel that we are being treated with respect in return

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SinnerBoy · 05/03/2024 11:15

That's very well written and addresses the matter politely.

Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 11:11

This is the email we will be sending, about the disingenuous reply we had to our complaint

Dear Headteacher

Thank you for your response, but I am afraid there seems to be a misunderstanding about our concerns about this book.

You state that the school does not teach gender identity beliefs and that stereotypes are challenged wherever they are seen, but our concerns about the book are that:

  1. The book appears to present gender identity beliefs as facts, including a glossary (likely to be interpreted by children as factual) with the definition of “gender identity” as a person’s “sense of their own gender, which may or may not correspond to the sex they were assigned at birth”, and describing sex as “assigned” at birth (rather than observed). Not believing in gender identity is equally as acceptable as believing in it, and both are protected under the Equality Act 2010. How does the school ensure that gender identity is presented as belief, and that other beliefs are also included in the teaching, when using this resource?
  1. The book reinforces gender stereotypes in which being female is defined by stereotypes of appearance and physical grooming including “pretty” painted nails, long hair and wearing bright colours and stereotypically feminine clothing. The Dad’s gender is presented as revealed by the use of nail polish: “We paint each other’s nails. Oh, didn’t I tell you? My Dad is a she.” How does teaching using this resource meet the DfE guidelines not to reinforce harmful stereotypes or to suggest children might be a different gender based on the clothes they prefer to wear?
  1. The book polices children’s pronoun use, including a child who is corrected on the use of she/her pronouns for their uncle. We are concerned that the message to children that they must use pronouns which may conflict with biology is a safeguarding issue, denying children the language to name reality and recognise and describe someone as male or female, or to feel able to react to or report situations that make them feel uncomfortable. How does the school ensure that encouraging children to accept diversity and be polite and respectful to people in their preferred gender expression also ensures that children have the language and understanding needed for safeguarding, and protect the equally valid beliefs of children who do no believe in gender identity ideology?

It is possible that these concerns were addressed by the context in which it was taught. If so, we would be reassured to see the reading comprehension lesson plan including how it was highlighted to the children that this is a set of personal beliefs that must be respected but are not shared by everyone; and identifying and challenging the stereotypes about women in the book.

And if, on review, you conclude that the school did not ensure it was clear that these were part of a range of personal beliefs and ensure that children were supported to critically identify and challenge the sexist stereotypes, then we would like to be informed of how this will be addressed.

We support and value inclusiveness at this school, our children will interact with a wide range of people throughout their lifetimes, and it is important that they can treat those people with dignity and respect for their beliefs. We echo the importance of our children understanding about a range of families and we are encouraged by how our children are introduced to range of religious beliefs and shown how to respect them, without being taught any religion as fact.

We appreciate that there will be a range of personal beliefs on this topic. We are requesting that the school respects all views in the school community, including ours that gender identity is a personal belief which (similarly to the excellent teaching of a diversity of religions at the school) should be respected but not taught as fact. We would appreciate the school responding constructively to address our concerns rather than dismiss them.

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Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 10:46

To be fair, @ScrollingLeaves it does all feel like a bit of a sham.

We are incandescently furious.

To be told that our views are bigoted, offensive and we should be removing our children from the school

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ScrollingLeaves · 05/03/2024 10:39

Correction: ‘what a shame’

SinnerBoy · 05/03/2024 10:39

I'd be very interested to read whatever nonsense they come back with!

ScrollingLeaves · 05/03/2024 10:38

I am so sorry, Vebrithien what a sham that this should happen after all the work of your group a year ago. That Deputy Head was biding her time and digging in since last year, wasn’t she? The head teacher is perhaps a little weak.

How wrong to pick on one parent from a group email and contact them separately.

That book is a particularly awful exercise in extreme narcissism and promotes the emotional abuse of children. Excuse the pun, but it speaks volumes about whoever is in charge of the English curriculum.

Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 10:35

Yes, I agree @SinnerBoy

We are going to send our original response email, and then there will be a second email, detailing what was said on the phone call and making a complaint + trying to find out the schools official position on this

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SinnerBoy · 05/03/2024 10:29

There are shades of that teacher filmed last year, calling two girls bigots and telling them to find another school.

Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 10:26

Yep.

I've heard the voice message from friend D, from immediately after the phonecall.

The DepHead objected to friend D not wanting her child to be taught about transgender and NB identity. The DepHead said that the messages were offensive, and that she should consider taking her daughter to a different school.

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DrBlackbird · 05/03/2024 09:41

I’m not suggesting that any are @Vebrithien only that the DeptHead may conveniently think of your group as being so in order to dismiss your legitimate concerns. Dismiss the complainers with ad hominem, s/he gets to dismiss the complaint without having to consider the merits of the actual argument.

Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 09:32

We are not all evangelical Christians, there are two, plus CofE, Anglo-Catholic, Methodist, Muslim, Hindu, agnostic and atheist.

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DrBlackbird · 05/03/2024 09:05

Makes me depressed thinking that there’s even less hope for teaching children critical thinking skills. Something they and the world need to learn to do.

DrBlackbird · 05/03/2024 09:03

My late teen DCs have been taught that preferred pronouns are #bekind and they truly believe using them is being kind. However there was general agreement that Isla Bryson should be housed in a male estate.

Books such as this one aimed at that age group is absolutely indoctrination designed to be early enough that by the time they reach late teens there will be no argument about housing the likes of Isla Bryson in a female estate. Insidious, inexorable breakdown of social norms and safeguarding to advance a particular agenda.

Compounding the issue is how many of those in positions of authority simply do not like being challenged. Feel angered by it and will push back to reassert authority. Adding to this occasion they feel the pleasure of sanctimonious righteous anger. The DeptHead probably thinks the concerned parents are all evangelistic Christians.

Vebrithien · 05/03/2024 08:50

There is some more evidence that is going to be shared with us, but it sounds as though the DepHead is saying that if we don't like what the school is teaching, we should take our children elswhere

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