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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sex not gender, No Outsiders changing the Equality Act, DepHead/DSL captured

736 replies

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 12:51

Well, here we are, with a whole new thread!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4713725-please-help-gender-not-sex-on-a-school-protected-characteristics-poster-just-spoken-to-the-head?page=10&reply=123546552

Thank you all, so so much for the support you have given me.

I am currently working on the draft of the message I want to send.

Long story short, DD's primary school displays posters by No Outsiders, showing the 9 protected characteristics of the Equality Act. Sex as been replaced with gender.

I have raised this with the Head, the assistant Head, and the Deputy Head (DepHead, as DH just doesn't work here). I have been reassured that sex is synonymous with gender in law, and, through an email stream, No Outsiders have reassured the school that it is deliberate, gender is easier to teach children than sex, especially as some will snigger at sex.

Oh, and teaching that gender is the difference between boys and girls, it makes it easier to then explain gender reassignment later on.

I'll put the message from the DepHead and No Outsiders here, and also my reply, in its current state.

Thank you all again!

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 14:16

ValerieDoonican · 01/02/2023 14:10

"gender is the difference between boys and girls, it makes it easier to then explain gender reassignment later on"

🔊🔊

Where did this come from?

This makes it easy to mislead children that changing gender is the same as changing sex, and they can actually become a boy/girl although they are in fact a girl/boy.

This is very, very troubliung to me. It's so very cruel to children.

Paraphrased from the message from No Outsiders to the DepHead, and forwarded to me.

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Justme56 · 01/02/2023 14:16

So this guy has written a book called ‘No Outsiders in our School: Teaching the Equality Act in Primary Schools’ and the proceeds to get one of the characteristics wrong and claims the poster isn’t about the Equality Act?

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 14:14

And I don't imagine that them having a transgender/non-binary Mx as a TA covering a maternity leave, helps at all.

I have no quarrel with them personally. I've never spoken to them. But I still believe children should be taught the lawful, definable language.

I see the other side of this, when I have students coming up to my secondary school. They are taught a unit of reproduction in year 7, and I get children every year who are convinced humans can change sex, that men can be pregnant, that when a transwoman transitions, they magically grow a uterus and vagina, and will have periods. I am yet to be reported for correcting them, however it is probably only a matter of time.

As a PP said, primary children have "magical thinking". If you tell them that gender is the difference between girls and boys, and that you can reassign or swap your gender, they truly believe that humans can change biological sex. I'm not interested in the "legal sex argument " here

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ValerieDoonican · 01/02/2023 14:10

"gender is the difference between boys and girls, it makes it easier to then explain gender reassignment later on"

🔊🔊

Where did this come from?

This makes it easy to mislead children that changing gender is the same as changing sex, and they can actually become a boy/girl although they are in fact a girl/boy.

This is very, very troubliung to me. It's so very cruel to children.

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 14:08

The messages from the DepHead show that this a school wide problem, not just a couple of posters.

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Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 14:07

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/02/2023 14:00

One tip I was given when writing something not dissimilar was to number the issues/paragraphs and to ask for each to be addressed - that way you can easily track what they have/haven’t responded to which is often telling in itself.

Righto, good tip!

My problem is that I only have access to a computer for less than half the week, so typing time is at a premium. The formatting is trickier on my phone.

Roughly, looking to send probably early next week. Gives some time before the holiday, but also enough time after the strike.

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AlisonDonut · 01/02/2023 14:05

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:25

As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit? Are they not welcome? Gender is a more inclusive term so it makes sense to use it in this context. It doesn't mean that the school don't take the issues you've mentioned seriously, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that a poster about inclusion goes against any of the policies you mention.

Intersex people are still either one sex or another. There is no third, or fourth or fifth sex.

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 14:04

If you are mentioning Transgender Trend, you may want to say that the founder has received a BEM for ‘services to children’

Nice one! Although Andrew Moffat also received teaching awards

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RPMcMurphy · 01/02/2023 14:01

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:51

I didn't know that intersex was a derogatory term - thank you for bringing this to my attention, I will look into it some more.

The poster makes no reference to transgender children and doesn't necessarily reflect what children are being taught. So I still think it's a bit of a stretch. But clearly both sex and gender are important in terms of inclusivity - so should the poster not be updated to include both terms?

That would be because there is no such thing as a ‘transgender child’.

If you are mentioning Transgender Trend, you may want to say that the founder has received a BEM for ‘services to children’.

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 14:01

Catabogus · 01/02/2023 13:52

I’m quite concerned about this phrase in the organisation’s response:

If we’re talking specifically about the Equality Act with older children and they use the term sex, I will correct them

Are they really “correcting” children wrongly to say that gender not sex is in the EA? Or do we think this was a typo and they meant to say “if they use the term gender” (fits better with the sense of the sentence perhaps)?

Sorry - slight derail - but I thought it worth pointing out.

Not a detail at all, several PP also pointed this out the last thread.

I just don't know if I should address it here, in this initial message.

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Jellycatspyjamas · 01/02/2023 14:00

One tip I was given when writing something not dissimilar was to number the issues/paragraphs and to ask for each to be addressed - that way you can easily track what they have/haven’t responded to which is often telling in itself.

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:59

But the poster doesn't mention the equality act. I understand what you are saying, but is your concern about the poster or what the children are being taught? Because if it's the latter, the poster doesn't reflect what the children are being taught about the equality act - wouldn't it make more sense to ask how the children are taught about the equality act, rather than going off on a tangent about the semantics of an inclusivity poster?

Igmum · 01/02/2023 13:58

Great cake @Boiledbeetle thank you. Is that coffee I see over there?

Excellent letter. And I agree, this lot have foisted all legal responsibility onto the poor schmuck of a DepH and they haven't spotted it yet. Very disingenuous response from them, but also, I suspect, one they have practiced.

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:54

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:51

I didn't know that intersex was a derogatory term - thank you for bringing this to my attention, I will look into it some more.

The poster makes no reference to transgender children and doesn't necessarily reflect what children are being taught. So I still think it's a bit of a stretch. But clearly both sex and gender are important in terms of inclusivity - so should the poster not be updated to include both terms?

You mean, change the Equality Act?

8 out of the 9 protected characteristics are written there AS THEY ARE IN LAW.

Only sex has been replaced.

Fine, show a poster that includes us all, makes us all welcome, but schools have a LEGAL duty to teach the Equality Act, and that includes SEX. Not gender.

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Boiledbeetle · 01/02/2023 13:53

Just offering tea and cake to the travellers. And placemarking

☕🍰

Catabogus · 01/02/2023 13:52

I’m quite concerned about this phrase in the organisation’s response:

If we’re talking specifically about the Equality Act with older children and they use the term sex, I will correct them

Are they really “correcting” children wrongly to say that gender not sex is in the EA? Or do we think this was a typo and they meant to say “if they use the term gender” (fits better with the sense of the sentence perhaps)?

Sorry - slight derail - but I thought it worth pointing out.

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:51

More thoughts. After I have given the three definitions of gender (I thought that provided a variety of sources and viewpoints), should I then ask about how gender is being taught without reference to harmful sexism stereotypes, as this is against teaching practice (would need to find the reference)

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beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:51

I didn't know that intersex was a derogatory term - thank you for bringing this to my attention, I will look into it some more.

The poster makes no reference to transgender children and doesn't necessarily reflect what children are being taught. So I still think it's a bit of a stretch. But clearly both sex and gender are important in terms of inclusivity - so should the poster not be updated to include both terms?

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 13:47

Jellycatspyjamas · 01/02/2023 13:42

They have an issue with using sex because younger children might find it funny or tell
parents they learned about sex today but they include sexual orientation in the poster. I’d argue sexual orientation can be a more tricky, and more likely to illicit giggles in young children than the concept of biological sex.

Its clear they are setting kids up to conflate sex and gender to make the concept of gender reassignment easier to introduce at a later stage - they’ve said as much in their email. It’s grooming in plain sight.

I completely agree with you, and although I've not included it in my message, their RSE policy states that students need to know about marriage and same sex marriage, before they leave primary school. How can they teach this, if they don't use the term sex, for the two sexes?

Ditto, sexual orientation.

However, though this might make it too long. It could be included in the "discriminating against students with SEND/EAL"?

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Jellycatspyjamas · 01/02/2023 13:42

They have an issue with using sex because younger children might find it funny or tell
parents they learned about sex today but they include sexual orientation in the poster. I’d argue sexual orientation can be a more tricky, and more likely to illicit giggles in young children than the concept of biological sex.

Its clear they are setting kids up to conflate sex and gender to make the concept of gender reassignment easier to introduce at a later stage - they’ve said as much in their email. It’s grooming in plain sight.

ReadtheReviews · 01/02/2023 13:41

And I object to the NO person saying sex might make them giggle as a reason to leave it off. Are they going to avoid saying same sex couples or sexuality? Wouldnt males and females be a better alternative anyway than gender for the poster if that is their problem?

MrsOvertonsWindow · 01/02/2023 13:38

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:25

As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit? Are they not welcome? Gender is a more inclusive term so it makes sense to use it in this context. It doesn't mean that the school don't take the issues you've mentioned seriously, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that a poster about inclusion goes against any of the policies you mention.

Intersex people have repeatedly asked not to be co opted by trans activists like the No Outsiders group. It's ignored of course, just as the rights of every other group are ignored and their situation is appropriated to try to justify women being forced to undress in front men, men being allowed to take over women's sport and the need to remove all hard fought for rights for women etc.

SinnerBoy · 01/02/2023 13:37

beccaboo222 · Today 13:25

As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

They are presenting it as though it were officially sanctioned, but missing sex, which is a provision under the Equalities Act. They know perfectly well that it's not. Sex and gender are not synonymous, nor interchangeable. They've demonstrated that they know this.

If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit?

Please do not use the derogatory and false term "intersex," when you mean People With DSD. People with DSD are still either male, or female, though there external appearance may not reflect that. They comprise 0.018 % of the population and they'd doubtless know that they are, too, welcome.

DSD people and trans people have no relationship, despite now mostly abandoned attempts by the trans zealots to co-opt them. DSD groups have told them repeatedly NOT to co-opt them into the trans activism sphere. It's highly offensive to them.

ReadtheReviews · 01/02/2023 13:32

Two thoughts. I think the No Outsiders person may mean the posters rather than the children when he says 'i will correct them'. Secondly, that it is a political statement to say 'you have a gender' since the term has been corrupted to not be synonymous with sex but to mean 50+ different things, none of which you are obligated to 'have' or define yourself with if you aren't woo inclined.

SinnerBoy · 01/02/2023 13:31

From the communication from the external provide...

Should be provider, there's another example, too.