Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Sex not gender, No Outsiders changing the Equality Act, DepHead/DSL captured

736 replies

Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 12:51

Well, here we are, with a whole new thread!

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4713725-please-help-gender-not-sex-on-a-school-protected-characteristics-poster-just-spoken-to-the-head?page=10&reply=123546552

Thank you all, so so much for the support you have given me.

I am currently working on the draft of the message I want to send.

Long story short, DD's primary school displays posters by No Outsiders, showing the 9 protected characteristics of the Equality Act. Sex as been replaced with gender.

I have raised this with the Head, the assistant Head, and the Deputy Head (DepHead, as DH just doesn't work here). I have been reassured that sex is synonymous with gender in law, and, through an email stream, No Outsiders have reassured the school that it is deliberate, gender is easier to teach children than sex, especially as some will snigger at sex.

Oh, and teaching that gender is the difference between boys and girls, it makes it easier to then explain gender reassignment later on.

I'll put the message from the DepHead and No Outsiders here, and also my reply, in its current state.

Thank you all again!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
Original poster
Vebrithien · 03/02/2023 15:06

Okay, thank you. I think I will save it for another day

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 03/02/2023 12:25

Sorry, my phone is tricky. I did not mean a ? after ‘reassignment’.

”and what and how they teach them about ‘gender reassignment’”

ScrollingLeaves · 03/02/2023 12:21

Your letter is about the poster with the bubble saying Gender.
You are making the point that it should say ‘Sex’.

It seems salient to go on to ask what they say to the children about what ‘gender’ means; and what and his they teach them about ‘gender reassignment’?

But,

might this be too much? You might get a clearer answer by sticking to the original idea for now. I wonder what others think?

ScrollingLeaves · 03/02/2023 12:10

Please excuse this interruption, or if you have already seen it, but I thought people on this thread might be interested in this letter in ‘Transgender Trend’ by a 14 year old about gender ideology indoctrination in her secondary school which someone has posted on another thread.

www.transgendertrend.com/?cat=(id-cultural-influences-and-debate),(id-health-professionals-and-organisations

HagoftheNorth · 03/02/2023 08:54

Veb, I think you’ve got a really good letter which is already quite long. I would send that, but maybe follow up later with a question about how they teach gender - unless you find putting it in the letter works better.

Alternatively, share the load - ask if one if the other supportive mums would take on this, slightly different, angle. It might be good for the school to see you’re not a lone voice

AmigoDogs · 03/02/2023 08:40

I mean, while you're there why not?

Is there anything in the Reindorf review
sex-matters.org/posts/freedom-of-speech/the-reindorf-review-a-wake-up-call-for-universities that might be useful? What's the bit about 'quoting the Equality Act as they would like it to be rather than it actually is'? That's one of the things No Outsiders have done as well.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 03/02/2023 08:25

Do I ask how they teach gender, other than a series of sexist stereotypes? And link the relevant DforE guidelines to how we shouldn't?

Or save for another day?

OP posts:
Original poster
Vebrithien · 02/02/2023 16:41

Well, I'm on draft number whatever, just need to add a something from @Shelefttheweb 's masterpiece, then I will be ready for another read through.

Might not be tonight though.

OP posts:
MrsMaxDeWinter · 02/02/2023 15:43

Shelefttheweb · 01/02/2023 20:44

children just need to know that ‘sex ‘ is physical body and whether they are a boy or a girl

sex is not just whether they are a boy or a girl - sex is sow/boar, cock/hen, cow/bull, tib/tom, pen/cob, ewe/ram, stag/doe. It is whether you will get a apple off your tree, or a courgette off your plant, it is why we need bees and other pollinators, it is the dangers of hormones in rivers, or the temperature of a crocodile eggs, it is the feathers on a peacock and leks. It is why our banana variety is so vulnerable, and pet dogs differ. It is food production and population control. It is Afghanistan and infanticide....

This is wonderful. Do include it please @Vebrithien in your otherwise well written and clear as glass letter.

I only recently started following these threads and have often wondered about the cognitive dissonance that pretends that sex is less relevant than gender, when, without an understanding of sex differences, it becomes impossible to understand topics as varied as reproduction in the natural word all the way to human history like the Suffragettes and current affairs like the Taliban and the overturning of Roe v Wade.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 02/02/2023 14:54

Their safeguarding, inclusion and equality policies use sex.

OP posts:
Redshoeblueshoe · 02/02/2023 11:38

Great cake BB

CharlieParley · 02/02/2023 11:00

Have you asked to see the school's anti-discrimination policies yet? This may help you find out if they use the protected characteristics properly elsewhere or if they have been captured completely.

If there is ever any accusation of discrimination, the school must be able to show that they have policies using the correct protected characteristics, otherwise they may have issues with mounting an effective defence.

So if, for instance, a parent launches a discrimination claim because they feel their girl is being discriminated against on the basis of her sex, the school would struggle if the discrimination policy uses gender.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 02/02/2023 10:44

I love it, @Shelefttheweb

Might see if I can weave a sentence or two in...

OP posts:
ScrollingLeaves · 01/02/2023 23:19

It isn’t my letter, in case I gave the wrong impression, Shelefttheweb. I was referring to suggestions for Veb’s letter.

Shelefttheweb · 01/02/2023 23:16

Feel free to use

ScrollingLeaves · 01/02/2023 22:28

You have put that marvellously Shelefttheweb, and that is so true. That would be a beautiful paragraph to write to the deputy head.

I was just trying to think of something short for the letter in the context of saying sex is different from gender, and in the context of AM saying they would snigger at the word

ZestFest · 01/02/2023 21:43

Shelefttheweb Very powerful and completely true 👏

Shelefttheweb · 01/02/2023 20:44

children just need to know that ‘sex ‘ is physical body and whether they are a boy or a girl

sex is not just whether they are a boy or a girl - sex is sow/boar, cock/hen, cow/bull, tib/tom, pen/cob, ewe/ram, stag/doe. It is whether you will get a apple off your tree, or a courgette off your plant, it is why we need bees and other pollinators, it is the dangers of hormones in rivers, or the temperature of a crocodile eggs, it is the feathers on a peacock and leks. It is why our banana variety is so vulnerable, and pet dogs differ. It is food production and population control. It is Afghanistan and infanticide....

ZestFest · 01/02/2023 19:31

I'm so very pleased that you are fighting this. It makes me weep that it's come to this. Such a vile and dangerous ideology.

Original poster
Vebrithien · 01/02/2023 19:18

"Turning a tap to pee"?

Why on God's Green Earth would you do that to yourself?

I don't mean to dismiss those who cannot reconcile their personality with their natural body, I cannot imagine that discomfort. But, bloody hell.

From 15 years observation, over the last 5-7 years I've had increasing numbers of students insisting humans can change sex. Unfortunately, many are in the lower sets, and once they have an idea, they are very unlikely to let go of it.

Interestingly, I also teach a handful of autistic, GCSE level girls. Each of them is gender non-conforming, but they are top set, and are perfectly happy that they are females. But, being able to have a sensible conversation with them, also helps.

OP posts:
scratchedbymycat · 01/02/2023 18:47

As a PP said, primary children have "magical thinking". If you tell them that gender is the difference between girls and boys, and that you can reassign or swap your gender, they truly believe that humans can change biological sex.

This actually happened to the child of a friend of mine. Aged 11, Scotland, fee paying school, she was taught people could change sex. The lesson apparently included detailed discussion of prosthetic penises and 'turning a tap to pee'. That last detail was something even I didn't know, nor did her mother. Her daughter was actually properly unsettled by it all, very very uncomfortable, and didn't want to go to any more classes.

SinnerBoy · 01/02/2023 18:45

God.

My daughter is doing homework on a phone app and hasn't bothered to listen to the information. I told her to go back and listen again, but she says it wipes all her work.

The question, 2 answers: what types of reproduction to animals and plants have.

Answer: sexual and asexual. I even went online to show her. She's in bloody tears, as it's my fault she'll be in trouble for swearing.

FFS!

scratchedbymycat · 01/02/2023 18:39

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:25

As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit? Are they not welcome? Gender is a more inclusive term so it makes sense to use it in this context. It doesn't mean that the school don't take the issues you've mentioned seriously, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that a poster about inclusion goes against any of the policies you mention.

I believe the correct term is DSD, not intersex. Also, sex is identifiable for most people with DSD - they are not trans, and many find it offensive to have that definition even implicitly imposed on them. 'Sex' includes absolutely everyone, because everyone has a sex.

Somanyquestionstoaskaboutthis · 01/02/2023 18:14

ScrollingLeaves · 01/02/2023 16:02

Definitions of gender by Stonewall, the UK government and the WHO are all different and all highlight there is social and cultural impact on how gender is understood.

Veb, after this, could you say that in contrast to how ‘gender ‘ is a social construct, children just need to know that ‘sex ‘ is physical body and whether they are a boy or a girl?

I agree that would be a good addition.

Rainbowshit · 01/02/2023 16:43

beccaboo222 · 01/02/2023 13:25

As their email state, this is not a poster about the equality act. It is a poster about inclusion - "everyone is welcome here".

If they change gender to sex, where do intersex people fit? Are they not welcome? Gender is a more inclusive term so it makes sense to use it in this context. It doesn't mean that the school don't take the issues you've mentioned seriously, and I think it's a bit of a stretch to claim that a poster about inclusion goes against any of the policies you mention.

Every single human, including "intersex" people has a sex.

Not all humans have a gender. Gender is akin to a religious belief.

Leaving our sex would exclude me as I do not subscribe to the religion of gender and neither do my children.