Page 8 | Why is there 'no LGB without the T'?

Righthandcider · 2023-01-17T13:09:42+00:00

Something’s been going around my head in circles. I’ve seen the mantra ‘No LGB without the T’ repeated in several places. But exactly why have so many LGB organisations aligned themselves with trans hook, line and sinker? I mean one might argue that well-meaning LGB groups have been sucked in by TRAs who are blatantly piggy backing, borrowing the legacy of the gay liberation movement to shut down any debate by making it seem backwards and ‘phobic’ to question them in any way. But LGB groups themselves obviously don’t see the relationship this way. Most of them don’t seem to think they’re being used. So what is it that they think they have in common with trans activists? Isn’t there a bloody huge elephant in the room? LGB rights are about ensuring nobody is treated differently because of their sexuality. That's literally what unites lesbian, gay and bi people. I thought the party line for trans rights is that being trans is separate from and independent of a person’s sexuality. It’s simply about whether they feel they are male, female, neither or both. So where’s the overlap? Why are LGB groups giving their energy to fighting for the ‘T’, to the point of saying there’s ‘no LGB without it’, if it’s not about sexuality? Is it because they actually feel deep down that it IS about sexuality? That it’s partly about same sex attraction, in that a lot of gay people still feel the pressure of homophobia and would rather be transed out of it? That it’s partly about autogynaephilia, in that many cross dressers can now hold their heads high as stunning and brave better versions of 'cis' women, while enjoying the fulfilment of their ultimate sexual fantasy? If it’s not either of those things, then where exactly is the natural connection between LBG and T? The only explanation I’ve seen anywhere is that ‘they are another marginalised group’. But there are many other marginalised groups, so why join with this one in particular? I’m interested to hear people’s views.

EndlessTea · 18/01/2023 09:31

I don’t have evidence. Just my clear memories and a gathering horror at how transactivists have been memory-holing and retconning history.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2023 09:31

It was definitely used when i was at uni in mid 90s

Not where I was. It came later, IME. It certainly wasn't mainstream.

AdamRyan · 18/01/2023 09:29

Oh ffs
The question was why some people believe "there is no LGB without T"
I was making the point that i think LGB people who support the T feel a sense of solidarity about being born differently and having to come out
Where's your evidence to support your assertion that I am "outright lying"?

EndlessTea · 18/01/2023 09:27

The [1] links to another Wikipedia page.

EndlessTea · 18/01/2023 09:26

AdamRyan · 18/01/2023 09:24

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT

LGBT is an initialism that stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender. In use since the 1990s, the initialism, as well as some of its common variants, functions as an umbrella term for sexuality and gender identity.[1]

It was definitely used when i was at uni in mid 90s

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Where’s the citation in that Wikipedia entry to verify that assertion?

AdamRyan · 18/01/2023 09:24

EndlessTea · 18/01/2023 08:13

It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

Well that’s an outright lie.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT

LGBT is an initialism that stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender. In use since the 1990s, the initialism, as well as some of its common variants, functions as an umbrella term for sexuality and gender identity.[1]

It was definitely used when i was at uni in mid 90s

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 18/01/2023 09:24

EndlessTea · 18/01/2023 08:13

It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

Well that’s an outright lie.

Indeed. When I was at a red brick uni in the late 90’s it was definitely the LGB soc. no T in sight

EndlessTea · 18/01/2023 09:17

When I trawl through my own memories of that time, around 2007, I remember there was a concerted effort to centre men in feminism- 3rd Wave ‘anti-censorship’ or ‘sex-positive’ feminism, this was prior to intersectional analysis coming to the fore.

Any feminist group, individual, blog or anything, was set upon and scolded and berated until they included ‘transwomen’ or said that (made up) ‘transmisogyny’ was just as bad or worse than misogyny. It was really out of the blue, aggressive and odd. For hypothetical example, there might be a feminist blog where the blogger said ‘violence against women and girls is endemic’ and flying monkeys would be all over the comments saying ‘why are you not acknowledging the much worse plight of transwomen, I can’t believe you are calling yourself feminist and being so transphobic, blah, blah, blah’, then the person who had written the blog would edit it to say ‘violence against women and girls, particularly transwomen, is endemic’.

The way I saw it, was that feminism/women’s rights was hijacked before the LGB. Although I do remember that the flying monkeys seemed to be women who identified as ‘queer’.

pattihews · 18/01/2023 09:12

AdamRyan · Today 08:04
It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

Do you have any evidence to support that? I'm a lesbian and I was out and about in London in the 90s, during the AIDS years. I was a volunteer at THT and so came into contact with a lot of gay men. There were always gay drag queens and transsexuals on the fringes of the gay scene, but I didn't hear the word transgender used until around 2007. Everything was definitely just LGB till then. Stonewall was flirting with the TQ+ from around that time. I went to a Stonewall conference and was seated next to a straight man and his girlfriend for one small group session. They were Queer, apparently. I can remember taking it back to the regional rep, whom I knew, and asking wtf was going on.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2023 08:56

LangCleg (forever in Weetabix)

But the intention to completely erode all women’s boundaries were there from the get go.

Yep. Remember this when people come on here and tell you that our current problems are all the fault of johnny-come-latelies who have ruined it all for the "true trans". It's not true.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2023 08:53

Relevant thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3463920-Lets-go-back-to-2007

EndlessTea · 18/01/2023 08:35

I realise now, from the above, that heterosexual fathers like J Morris were given sexual reassignment surgery in the UK - so the limitation to homosexual men must have been an American thing.

AlisonDonut · 18/01/2023 08:34

That telling children about LGB/trans people will encourage them to do things they might regret later, or lead them into a life which is likely to be unfulfilled and lonely, and in which they won’t be able to have children with their partner in the normal way.

Well, telling kids they can be the opposite sex [if they like the 'wrong' toys], and pushing them down a route that leads to sterilisation does indeed lead them into a life where they won't be able to have children in the normal way doesn't it?

EndlessTea · 18/01/2023 08:30

aseriesofstillimages · 18/01/2023 08:07

Personally, and on the basis of the views of most other LGB people I know, our support of trans inclusion stems from a sense that a lot (though not all) of the objections to trans people are similar to the objections that were being raised to LGB people until quite recently. That trans women/gay people are perverts or fetishists, predatory, and a threat to children. That telling children about LGB/trans people will encourage them to do things they might regret later, or lead them into a life which is likely to be unfulfilled and lonely, and in which they won’t be able to have children with their partner in the normal way. That we are seeking to redefine things against the way they have been commonly understood for centuries (“marriage”, “woman”).

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This sounds like retconning to me.

The majority of those pushing to add the T were middle-aged/elderly heterosexual fathers in the beginning.

Originally, before Blanchard/Bailey got involved, the only men who were accepted for sexual reassignment surgery were gay men, so they already belonged to the LGB (and wanted out -to be straight).

Lesbians started to get into it in noughties in the USA and in Europe in the twenty tens.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2023 08:27

How about you go on Twitter or Reddit trans subs and suggest 3rd spaces? Report back with your experience.

This. I don't think anyone has ever done this when asked, you could be the first! I'm sure they'll appreciate the suggestion.

DressingForRevenge · 18/01/2023 08:27

I’m pretty old and I’m sure there are many here older and more experienced than me.

When I was at university there was LGB, towards the end of my degree the T was added. I assume to include “old school transsexuals” (the op kind going quietly about life).

With modern explosion it’s “anyone who wants to be a bit special” but it’s fucking ludicrous.

Never mind the wave of autogynephilia and autistic teens - on which planet does a lesbian want to be grouped with a “minor-attracted person” or a gay man want to be grouped with a “queer (I.e., straight woman) female who does only have sex with men but has a fancy haircut and lots of earrings.

LGB is not a fashion statement.

SantaCarlaCalifornia · 18/01/2023 08:25

Tukmgru · 18/01/2023 07:39

@AssumingDirectControl every single one is horrific and should of course never be dismissed. But frankly the numbers are minuscule compared to the numbers committed by men. It’s a false equivalence. You can talk proportion if you want (and still numbers are conflicting, because it’s become a tactic of atrocious people in the US in particular to get convinced and then pretend to be trans) but the numbers are tiny.

I am, however, all up for practical solutions - which Mumsnetters aren’t. Why is no one lobbying their MP for separate trans prisons? We have the money as a country, we found it to give billions for fake PPE to the tories’ mates. Trans people would benefit as well, they’d likely be safer. Also would deter the aforementioned opportunists. So come on, let’s all band around that rather than tearing chunks out of each other about something that won’t otherwise go away. They aren’t just going to disappear, like some posters on here think, just because the Scottish legislation doesn’t go through.

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That post shows you have no idea what people on MN believe.
Do you really think that no one here has ever suggested 3rd spaces? Really? That you're a genius that's just come up with it?

They've been suggested and shut down by the trans lot as they don't just want safety, they want to be treated as the opposite sex in EVERY situation. No separate prisons, or anything else is enough, only complete integration.

Don't you get it yet? This is a giant loophole that allows abusive men to abuse women and people like you handwave it through to be kind while calling others bigots.

How about you go on Twitter or Reddit trans subs and suggest 3rd spaces? Report back with your experience.

AlisonDonut · 18/01/2023 08:25

Just let people be, FFS. The threat to women’s rights does not, repeat does not come from genuine Ts. It comes from men

What is a 'genuine T'?

And why are they not men?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2023 08:16

It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

It wasn't in my experience of being young/going to uni in the mid to late 90s. Not in the mainstream. It was very much LGB. I'd say more like 20. And remember that Stonewall didn't start promoting trans rights in this country until 2015.

EndlessTea · 18/01/2023 08:13

It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

Well that’s an outright lie.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2023 08:13

That we are seeking to redefine things against the way they have been commonly understood for centuries (“marriage”, “woman”).

The definition of woman is important to all women, not just lesbian and bisexual ones. It's not up to you to "redefine it", and you don't have any more right to do so than anyone else.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/01/2023 08:10

Just let people be, FFS. The threat to women’s rights does not, repeat does not come from genuine Ts. It comes from men. It’s more likely to be your husband, your father, your brother that’s a danger to you or other women, by an absolute country mile, but that’s too awkward for anyone to admit.

This shows a lack of understanding of the whole issue.

aseriesofstillimages · 18/01/2023 08:07

Righthandcider · 17/01/2023 15:48

Exactly. You can see how it might have started, and even how it gained momentum (Stonewall etc needing a new cause to fight for as pps suggest).

But I just don't get why so many persist, so fiercely, in swallowing TRAs' version of the world and shouting la-la-la-transphobia at everything else.

It's fairly obvious that most politicians, journalists, leaders of institutions on the 'be kind' and TWAW side just haven't done their own digging into this issue and woken up.

But I just can't understand how people who are not trans themselves but seemingly eat, breathe and sleep trans rights are still just unaware of / able to ignore the stuff GC people talk about. How can they be unaware of all the black pampers activity, the likes of Barbie Kardashian, detransitioners coming out, the huge surge in GNC girls butchering their bodies, the gay conversion 'jokes' at the Tavistock, the shit show at Mermaids (and S Green's Ted Talk!), the growing number of Youtubers such as Menno sharing reams of evidence of predatory behaviour by straight men in lipstick and knickers. And tonnes of other calm, reasonable, intelligent evidence-backed commentary.

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Personally, and on the basis of the views of most other LGB people I know, our support of trans inclusion stems from a sense that a lot (though not all) of the objections to trans people are similar to the objections that were being raised to LGB people until quite recently. That trans women/gay people are perverts or fetishists, predatory, and a threat to children. That telling children about LGB/trans people will encourage them to do things they might regret later, or lead them into a life which is likely to be unfulfilled and lonely, and in which they won’t be able to have children with their partner in the normal way. That we are seeking to redefine things against the way they have been commonly understood for centuries (“marriage”, “woman”).

AdamRyan · 18/01/2023 08:04

It's been LGBT for at least 30 years

At that time there was still a huge stigma to being gay - section 28 was in place etc. And so a lot of gay people had struggled with feeling different/wrong, coming out etc. Many had to come to terms with not being able to wish themselves straight.
The transgender narrative around "being born in the wrong body" has parallels I think and would resonate with gay people who struggled.

Because of that shared experience, I guess many gay people will support trans people.

I think we forget now that it's fairly recent for homosexuality to be accepted and even celebrated. There is still homophobia but in general in the UK we are now very accepting. But that's a change that's happened in most adults lifetimes.

StalkedByASpider · 18/01/2023 08:02

Tukmgru · 18/01/2023 07:39

@AssumingDirectControl every single one is horrific and should of course never be dismissed. But frankly the numbers are minuscule compared to the numbers committed by men. It’s a false equivalence. You can talk proportion if you want (and still numbers are conflicting, because it’s become a tactic of atrocious people in the US in particular to get convinced and then pretend to be trans) but the numbers are tiny.

I am, however, all up for practical solutions - which Mumsnetters aren’t. Why is no one lobbying their MP for separate trans prisons? We have the money as a country, we found it to give billions for fake PPE to the tories’ mates. Trans people would benefit as well, they’d likely be safer. Also would deter the aforementioned opportunists. So come on, let’s all band around that rather than tearing chunks out of each other about something that won’t otherwise go away. They aren’t just going to disappear, like some posters on here think, just because the Scottish legislation doesn’t go through.

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I don't hate trans people, and there are some really lovely trans women on my Twitter.

But claiming that we should ignore the issue just because it's a "minority" is not right imo.

Trans women seem to retain the male pattern of criminality. And there are strong suggestions that a greater proportion are sexually deviant and in prison for sexual crimes.

The numbers are only so minuscule because the number of trans women in prisons is currently low. What happens as these numbers increase? We've already seen women raped in hospital and in prison by trans women - are these women just collateral? Because they were supposed to be in a safe space and these assaults were 100% preventable if the single sex exemption had been enforced.

I accept it's a small number at the moment, but it's the precedent, isn't it? Once the right is established, then we're screwed. Women are not a shield. If men are the danger to trans women then deal with the men - don't put women at risk to protect the trans women. That's literally prioritising the safety of trans women over biological women.

I liken it to the general male population. The number who will sexually assault or rape is tiny compared to the number of men overall in this country. The chances are that most men would be safe sharing a public toilet with women. The problem is there's a tiny minority who represent a danger to women and we can't tell who they are. It's exactly the same argument about trans women - setting aside issues such as religion, privacy and women who have been previously traumatised and don't want to share a space with a male-bodied person - the actual physical risk will only be from a small number. But we don't know who they are. Why do women have to step aside to accommodate feelings when doing so increases our risk?

I genuinely don't care how someone wants to live their life. But I'm nonplussed by the idea that women should just suck up the increased risk - and the number of assaults and rapes starting to trickle through suggests there IS a risk. This will only increase.

I am fine with the idea of trans wings/prisons. And we do need practical solutions because this isn't going to go away. And just saying "no, you can't have access to our spaces" won't be sufficient. And I agree with you that the Tories found the money when it was to give to their mates for doing fuck all. It's abhorrent. But actually right now I'd rather the billions was pumped into the NHS rather than build a whole trans prison. Trans prisoners can stay in the high security wings of the male prisons unless they're post op and have no male genitalia. If we weren't in such a crisis with the NHS I'd agree with pumping money to provide separate trans areas.

But it's worth mentioning that lots of the trans community - and by that I mean trans women as it seems to be driven by them rather than trans men - they won't accept being "other". It's complete and total acceptance that they ARE a woman that they want. And that means that trans facilities are not enough. They want into women's single sex spaces. They don't want their own.

Look at the rape crisis centre JKR set up. Her local rape centre is run by a trans woman who said that woman should accept a trans woman counsellor and needed to "reframe their trauma". So the feelings of trans women counsellors were centred over and above the raped victims. Trans women said if you don't like it, go and create your own space. So that's what JKR did. She's co-founded a rape crisis centre for biological women only - if trans women turn up they will be signposted to the place where they can get support.

The should be fine, right? Trans women have their rape crisis centre and biological women now have theirs. Nope. Bloody uproar. Plenty of TW talking about sneaking into the rape centre and tricking them. If that doesn't prove that it's not about their safety and just about taking possession of safe spaces that women have created, I don't know what does.

The whole argument is just about power. And it's about women being expected to step aside to keep male-bodied people happy. As per fucking usual.