Labour's Ben Bradshaw on the attack

I’m really not convinced that @EvilBee has the same level of understanding of the issues as many of the very knowledgeable women on this thread have. Its painful to witness, actually.

EvilBee is very far from being the sharpest tool in the box.

I refer everyone once again to the wise words of Rebekah Vardy, which we should all bear in mind every time one of these dimwits pops up on these threads: "It's like arguing with a pigeon. You can tell it that you are right and it is wrong but it’s still going to shit in your hair.”

@DaughterOfPsychiatrist I’ve just looked at the Guardian article you link to - so glad there were no photos in it. WTAF?

My lesbian friends (4 close friends) are vocally GC, as are the majority of gay men friends (I work in dance) . They are feminists, they do not subscribe to being called transphobes for their same sex (rather than same gender) orientation, and the lesbians see much of the FtM trans ing amongst young people as a fear of coming out as lesbian. Because Trans is currently seen as cooler than lesbian.

I campaigned against Section 28 alongside them. There are R wing conservatives who do not consider either homosexuals or Trans people as deserving of equality, despicable thinking. That does not mean every GC person has those beliefs.

Stop using words you don't understand.

The word, even the concept, of homophobia, is meaningless to you. As is section 28. You don't believe in homosexuality, or sexual orientation based on sex.

Furthermore, you're addressing many lesbians on this board. Given you don't understand sexual orientation, you're probably unaware of this, but female homosexuality and feminism will often go hand in hand.

Thats why the LGBA has such strong support. And why it's so relentlessly targeted of course.

Weird way to phrase the fact that some people think genital surgery should be a condition of legal ‘transition’.

i don’t, btw, because humans can’t change sex, no matter how much cosmetic surgery they have/how long they live with artificially altered hormone levels.

But mentally competent adults should be allowed to do what they want with their bodies as long as they self fund and any doctors involved are competent and stick to professional standards (eg not the lax way Webberly has behaved re: monitoring the FBC of patients on exogenous Testosterone or Russell Reid/ Robert Smith style amputations)

great post ItstheBiologyStupid

That tweet was a click bait attempt to draw attention to an article about a legal case in Japan. You can read The Economist article here (funnily enough, it doesn't argue for the sterilisation of anyone): archive.ph/XuAXD

As for Ben - what a knob. But I think the Rosie/Eddie meme on his thread deserves a thread of its own, so I’m grateful to Ben for letting me see it.

Rosie - I ❤️ you.

I wish you wouldn’t begin sentences with “Like” - it makes you hard to understand.

Re the Economist headline:

"Sterilisation" - you mean an actual gender affirming transition? I.e. a transwoman has "her penis" removed/inverted and testicles surgically removed?

Nobody's forcing that, either, but if you want the paperwork with the shiny new gender, then perhaps you should be willing to actually "transition" as much as possible...as opposed to self-ID or a doctor's note, and Maternity Services falling over themselves to erase the words "woman" and "mother" lest they offend those "birthing dads".

Like people can see the same tropes and recycled homophobia appearing.

Absolutely nothing is more homophobic than the erasure of same-sex orientation that gender identity theft ideology threatens with its replacement of "same-sex attraction" with " same-gender attraction". The concept of "breaking through the cotton ceiling" is the most regressive and despicable piece of lesbophobic nonsense I have seen in my lifetime.

EvilBee you’re really talking over women here. It’s not OK.
Lumping all lesbians in with what you call ‘LGBTQ+’ over this issue is homophobic and misogynistic. It ignores over a decade of grassroots lesbian protest to preserve women’s single sex spaces and places and opportunities and what has basically been the all-but obliteration of lesbian-only spaces and the disturbing truth that many lesbians are being made unwelcome and feeling threatened at Pride and in other gay spaces just because they want women only single sex spaces.

Imagine the absolute outcry if a peaceful consenting expression of men’s sexuality had been all but driven out of the public sphere in the way that has happened with UK lesbian culture.

And that’s not even to mention the coercive mind trips being played on individual lesbians by supporters of gender identity so that men can fuck them. It’s absolutely disgusting. Have a look at the Get the L out and the LGB alliance websites.

www.gettheloutuk.com/
lgballiance.org.uk/about/

I am massively concerned by success in the past couple of decades of this extremely successful men’s sexual access campaign which has been enabled by the wilful naivety and misogyny of those in power. Of whom Ben Bradshaw in Exeter isn’t even a particularly prominent example so how sad if he were making this some kind of political swan song point.

Not only has this misogynistic homophobic identity politics impacted on the lesbian community horrendously it has encouraged the loss of professional safeguarding and appropriate consent as foundations of medical treatment for kids and messed up various types of data collection for the future which will adversely impact everyone.

How anyone could side themselves with any of that as a potential future career options enhancer is completely beyond me.

I posted this before reading the Times article, and now see that May has indeed changed her initial thinking on this issue (as indeed have many of us, who started out unthinkingly wanting to simply be kind) so kudos to her, she’s clearly less dogmatic than I’d given her credit for.

Apologies all for derailing. I didn't realise Evil has got form.

As for the May/Bradshaw business - of course its disappointing nonsense. Bradshaw making a half hearted attempt to locate a mythical middle ground by deigning to nod to cross party ally.

Erm if I read right Ben, May was not overkeen to be misrepresented in this way.

The Economist wrote a provocative tweet in 2019 to draw attention to their article reporting on the state of the law in Japan following a controversial decision of the Supreme Court there:

web.archive.org/web/20220315230404/www.economist.com/asia/2019/03/14/japan-says-transgender-people-must-be-sterilised

The tone of the article is that Japan is out of step with other countries and behind the times. So in effect, the article is saying the opposite to what EvilBee suggested. The Economist was certainly not "suggesting that [trans people] should be sterilised so disgusting people like [them] don't reproduce".

Yet again, it turns out that globally as people have turned away from thinking sterilising trans people is a good idea, you'll still find plenty of supporters for this practice among trans activists.

That's the problem with trans activists, they're are continually motivated to spreading disinformation to mislead and one of their favourite things is DARVO.

Thank you countess. I found the tweet and associated article.

Evil, have you read the article referenced in the tweet you posted? If so.. how did you conclude a single badly worded tweet, the contents of the associated article and the views of women posting here, are all in agreement?

Granted, the wording of the tweet is alarming ...but tbh it is so outrageous it warrants scrutiny and pushback....which it appears it did.

Evil i wonder how helpful it is to attempt to scold women for 'wrong think' using poor evidence. Almost like you couldn't find something a bit more robust?

To get back to the thread, following the predicable derailing from our US Scold . . .

May, as we saw throughout her stint as PM, is a very dogmatic and stubborn woman. I think she saw this issue as the Tories’ latest Section 28 and didn’t want to go down that road. While most people’s initial thinking on the issue (we all started off wanting to #bekind) has evolved now that they understand that trans demands involve a dismantling of women’s rights and of safeguarding, May is not able to move beyond an initial instinct.

Depressing to think that surrounded by Tories in the SW, Labour are prepared to do nothing to listen in an effort to represent and engage with their electorate.

Ugh. Ben Bradshaw is retiring at the next election I think? I wonder if the SW Labour people think it’s inevitable that the Tories will win his seat and they just don’t care …

But this is depressing as I’d always thought Bradshaw was one of the good’uns.

Of course it’s not a gotcha. That poster relies on bad-fact arguments, obfuscation, lies, and attempts to shame posters for views we don’t actually hold.

Just Google The Economist headline, it relates to a ruling in Japan. Bit of a nonsense headline, which TE removed, but left the article exactly as was. Not the Gotcha moment that it might seem.

Back to the OP, Bradshaw is reportedly standing down at the next election and was a Labour Cabinet Member during the making of the EQA (the one that restricted single sex spaces) so maybe he's making headlines for himself to line up other jobs.

I don’t think that Economist feature is saying what you think it is. Are you very new to this issue?
It will be pointing out that demanding medical transition as a condition for legal transition as has been the case in many countries has the unintended consequence of forcing sterilization on them, with all the human rights problems such a consequence brings. Not saying ‘hey, we’ve got a great idea, let’s sterilise trans people so they can’t reproduce!’
Either you have brought this up in bad faith or are the victim of those who like to whip up paranoia among trans people.