80 year old woman banned from pool for standing up for little girls

The male had a full right to stand wherever he wanted and to look anywhere he liked, just like any 'other' woman.

There was no reason to report this for safeguarding, the law cannot take upon itself to direct human gaze.

Not an individual grievance - a huge safeguarding fail from an 'established authority' - which as it happens did manage to pull themselves together and fire this member of staff eventually. But only after their twitter manager declared 'nothing to see hear bigot'.

That is, in this case, it was legally correct to call the police and to report this 80-yr old woman for 'transphobia'.

This is what will increasingly happen in US, until women stop complaining about 'unexpected packages' in areas reserved for potentially naked or otherwise vulnerable women (the old-fashioned kind).

Stonewall et al are pushing for the same in UK (currently legally ambiguous).

Do we, women, want this?

If yes, why? (without talking about male needs)

Plenty of reported cases of male sexual predators doing this to gain access to women prisons and go on to assault female inmates. So absolutely not a stretch, surely?

And this doesn't in any way compare to an adult using facilities with their kids.

I didn't say that they 'should' I said that they 'can'. And that 'can' was in reference to the TW.

@LK1972
Morally - is this an acceptable situation/was the 83-yr old in question correct to protest (possibly not in those exact words)? What form of words would be acceptable?

If you are a bystander, the advice in safeguarding, and in any other situation where harm or ill-will etc is taking place, is not intervene and to report to the appropriate place/people/authority, as quickly as you can. Yes, I agree with that protocol. It exists for the safety of the bystander and to reduce escalation of a situation.

bright I can only speak from my own experience but DH when he took our girls swimming chose either a family cubical or a cubical in the male communal area. There is no way he would have undressed the girls in full view of other males. And by the time they were 7 they used a cubical on their own or went in to the female area without DH.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Julie Jaman's "Do you have a penis?" was the right question to ask in that situation.

The male was standing there in a women's swimsuit (everything would have been clearly silhouetted) so she had probably worked out already why this male felt entitled to be in the women's changing room. And she probably knew that their presence would in some way be justified by them. So emphasising that this person has all the physical attributes of a man makes it quite clear that there is no justification for their presence. Especially not when this male person then chooses to watch little girls getting undressed.

It's equivalent to reminders that pronouns are Rohypnol.

👏👏👏

I think non-consenting females finding themselves naked in front of a surprise man is worse than a surprise man getting naked in front of non-consenting females. Regardless, men shouldn't foist themselves into women's spaces, and the ones who do are suspect. This isn't about mean women not sharing; this is about men taking over everything (again).

I’m not sure I understand the suggestion that trans women transition in order to get access to women’s changing rooms and therefore undressed children… surely there are just as many children changing in the male changing rooms with their dads/other male family members.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that Julie Jaman's "Do you have a penis?" was the right question to ask in that situation.

The male was standing there in a women's swimsuit (everything would have been clearly silhouetted) so she had probably worked out already why this male felt entitled to be in the women's changing room. And she probably knew that their presence would in some

Maybe they did need calling; it needs investigating properly – and that's the importance of properly reporting incidents.

So the facts of the case are:
Non-naked male (identifies as 'woman' since Dec 2021), reportedly watching girls, was asked 'Do you have a penis' in Washington State, USA.

The argument on the board seems to be about whether it is legally and/or morally OK to ask this question.

Legally, no - in some place in USA, incl. in Los Angeles (see Wi Spa) it is fully legal for male persons to be in full state of undress in any space reserved for women, as long as said male person identifies as a woman. They may be in state of partial arousal and looking wherever they please, including at naked female minors.

Morally - is this an acceptable situation/was the 83-yr old in question correct to protest (possibly not in those exact words)? What form of words would be acceptable?

Separate question - seeing as this is a legally-mandated consequence of gender identity trumping sex in service provision, do we think we want similar laws in UK, especially as there are some influential organisations in this country pushing for it? Do we want any TW who identifies as a woman in any space reserved for women, regardless of their sartorial state or choices.

@Didimum, would be delighted to hear your thoughts on the moral questions raised by this case, if you have time.

MarthaOnTheRocks

ok. Can you please post an example from the site of an article that has false information?

So we can assess for ourselves why you think this about Reduxx.

Has there been any court cases where people have taken them to court, or corrections? or just any article that was false information.

I haven't read the Wi Spa incident, but I shall do. I would not, however, conflate it with this incident, at least not as its reported in the OP's linked article.

Oh the police needed calling.

Just not on an elderly woman

I think whether the person has a penis or not is quite relevant, as is the fact he targeted girls. While SA of any type is abominable, the outcomes are worse if penises and little girls are involved.

There was the case of that poor nine-year-old who died of internal bleeding after being forced to marry an adult man in Yemen a few years ago. And of course, there's the risk of pregnancy. I believe the youngest recorded case of pregnancy was five years old and that's not a massive outlier compared to the sickening number of cases of under tens.

While we live in THIS world, where THESE things are happening to little girls, we need to be able to correctly identify penis-havers and turf them out of safe spaces where girls are at risk.

I've not commented on whether I think the pool's reaction was correct – actually, I did say that calling the police was an overreaction and inappropriate too, but anyway. Yes, I think the pool should have responded by taking the elderly woman's concerns seriously and investigating. I don't know whether they have an employee who is charged with the reporting of safety concerns, but they should – it should go to them and be handled properly.

Not had time to read the whole thread, but wasn't the argument in favour of tw in female spaces that "anyone behaving criminally or inappropriately will be dealt with"?
And most of us knew that was utter bollocks because rape has effectively been decriminalised and because women are never believed when they do report things, and there was no reason to believe that would suddenly change.
Well, the Wi Spa confirmed that, and now here we go again.

Yep and the actual outcome of the WiiSpa incident was unsurprisingly:

• yes there was a male bodied person showing their erection to the girls and women in the female only section of the spa
• the male bodied person was later arrested and shockingly had a long list of priors involving showing women their penis
• the male bodied person had actually been banned from WiiSpa for that kind of behaviour previously and took advantage of mask wearing to get admitted

But women still had to deal with being called hysterical and transphobic and being abused by protesters and online.

Taking it up with the facility in many cases, doesn't do anything.
As was seen in the incident at Wi Spa, the woman who complained was made to feel as if SHE was the one who had done something wrong.
The staff were on board with the whole ideology, as they seem to be in this case too.

And in that case, the dick WAS definitely out.

Please stop excusing male presence in female single sex spaces with discussion of how women should position their body to change and not expose themselves.

'So?' you said they were getting their 'dick out' when they were not. That's why.

Yet again, if the woman (or you or whoever) has a problem with the facility's policy, then take it up with the facility.