Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 18

No that was about right.

I've also got a monthly DD to Sex Matters. I'm fortunate to be able to afford it and I like the feeling that some steady funding enables them to plan some longer term campaigns as well as respond to the stuff that is cropping up all the time.
Plus Maya, Naomi et al are just brilliant!

Kirrin Medcalf, Stonewall’s head of trans inclusion, told the judge that he required a support worker, his mother and a support dog to accompany him while giving evidence.

I'm beginning to think I'm the only person with the correct recollection of events. In addition to the assembly mentioned, Kirrin Medcalf also requested an emotional support person so there was an emotional support person and a technical support person and it was when the judge said they could all be present if the humans appeared on the stream, the emotional support worker fled the scene. Maybe I was hallucinating.

I like the idea of a central fighting fund. I am mostly gardening for Sarah Summers at the moment (with an eye on LGBA as well) because women's spaces really matter to me, her fund isn't huge and I'm guessing she can't do a lot of fundraising and tweeting herself without risking anonymity.

But we really shouldn't have to use legal cases like this to protect basic women's rights that we were promised when legislation was first put in place and trans people were included. And IMO if the EHRC was doing its job properly we wouldn't have to.

I would agree with this - and as you say, any surplus to be targeted towards the next battle.

I'm already a monthly supporter of Sex Matters, here's the link for anyone who wants to donate.

sex-matters.org/take-action/donate/

I've also contributed to the legal funds of Allison, Maya, Jo Phoenix, Raquel Rosaria Sanchez, Rachel Meade and Julie Bindel - it's outrageous that there are so many frankly!

There is somewhere in the piles of FWR threads a long conversation I had with a TQ+ activist and TW, who insisted vigorously that they identified as being horrified that I could imply that they believed in forced sex, conversion therapy and homophobia and at the same time was telling me that if I as a lesbian excluded male people from access to my body I was a phobic bigot who needed to learn to be straight better.

It is a position of incoherent batshit, which believes in selective reality, that you can look straight at a fact and deny it's there, and you can behave as grottily as you like so long as at the same time you identify as not being grotty.

As the relationships board so often says, you can only be reasonable with someone with the capacity for reasonability.

Sorry - that was in reply to Birdsweepsins post

Lol, Well that might be a bit more believable, if the head of stonewall (Morgan Page's boss) hadn't called lesbians sexual racists, the tribunal hadn't compared lesbianism to apartheid, and every entitled bloke insisting that lesbian women sleep with them.

It's very simple to disabuse lesbians of the notion that the cotton ceiling is a coercive attempt by men to sleep with them, and that's by not doing it.

When we did our annual accounts in April my partner and I went through our bills and totted up how much we'd given specifically to GC women's legal crowdfunders. It totalled just under £1900. Neither of us earn the national average salary these days: we've wound down a bit in our 60s. We're not hard-up but because we're a few years off our pensions we're having to be more careful with money and it was a surprise to see how all the small donations added up.

I'd be far happier paying a direct debit into a central fighting fund run by lawyers who can understand the merits of a particular case and its strategic value and likely success. I'd also like some of the emotion taken out of the appeals for funds.

NotCursedE:

During the tribunal we heard evidence from Bailey which showed that she did not have any way of knowing what actually took place during the event, she didn’t attend it and didn’t know anyone who did. We also heard evidence that her understanding of the phrase “the cotton ceiling” – and therefore the event – almost exclusively comes from secondary sources, most of which clearly showing an anti-trans bias. Primary sources are incredibly difficult to find.

transwrites.world/allison-baileys-cotton-ceiling-accusation/

Me after googling for .02 seconds:

This workshop's goals were to help the participants (trans males) “identify barriers”
and “strategize ways to overcome them.” The barriers spoken of are the boundaries and sexual orientation of lesbians, who by very definition are not attracted to males; the “ways to overcome them” being strategies to break down the boundaries and resilience of young lesbians by socially pressuring and coercing them to consider males that identify as trans as sexual partners.

www.lglf.org/the-cotton-ceiling.html#/

There might be a Women's Rights Network branch in your area. Also you could join Sex Matters - they often run campaigns.

My position exactly.

I think one of the problems is the garden has got bigger. When there are more cases one can only budget so much and the total amount has to be divvied up between various causes. When the other party is well funded and deliberately ramping up costs, as we have seen, the need to raise a very significant sum crops up.

I recently met a lawyer who was involved in an earlier, successful, case and he suggested that funding fatigue is setting in…
…maybe because people feel the battle is won, maybe straight cost of living crunch.

I'm very far from thinking the battle is won. It's a straight cost of living item and an awareness that funds have to be held as contingent against appeals etc. and that surpluses are being donated away from women's legal challenges.

I need something to which I can set up a DD. I need cases closely scrutinised for their strategic value by people who understand the material.

I recently met a lawyer who was involved in an earlier, successful, case and he suggested that funding fatigue is setting in.

Maybe because there are more cases, maybe because they are so fiendishly expensive, maybe because people feel the battle is won, maybe straight cost of living crunch. (The lawyer said he was very aware of the £5 donations from people who could not afford more.) Or perhaps gardening is just more difficult in a heatwave/drought. Whatever, the end result is that it is becoming harder to raise the money needed.

Just off to water the LGBA allotment.

I've also just seen the Tavistock headline!

Wonderful news - what gender dysphoric/nonconforming children need is a holistic approach to their healthcare and a careful "watch and wait" to see how issues resolve.

Some will eventually go on to transition, which is fair enough, but many will not.

This. I would be delighted to make a monthly contribution to a central fund for women's rights legal cases.

It's always worth reading Barbara Rich and she's commented on Allison's case and outcome. I've quoted part but the whole is worth a look.

Both Allison Bailey and Maya Forstater have shown determination and fortitude in pursuing their cases against discrimination on the grounds of belief. The decisions are important in equalities law, have stimulated wide public interest and financial support through crowdfunding

But I see and have seen little recognition or comment on them from human rights organisations or advocates (other than aligned or opposing campaigners) or Twitter’s more prolific lawsplainers. I think they should grasp the nettle, irrespective of their own personal views

The Centre for Global Development is a think tank based in Washington DC. Garden Court Chambers is a leading set of human rights chambers. Two workplaces a long way from the shop floor of Acme Widgets Ltd. These cases illustrate the fallibility of educated, liberal people

The fallibility of educated, liberal people who are not only responsible for their own conduct towards others they work with, but whose work is all about guiding and advising others, from countries in the developing world in CGD’s case, to individuals and organisations in GCC’s

And, through their various collective or individual connections with Stonewall, in Garden Court Chambers’s case, their work was also in proximity to campaigning for changes in the law to which there is not collective public or legislators’ assent. Time for some reflection on that

twitter.com/BarbaraRich_law/status/1552376016152166400

And me. Hail the Belgarion! Up the Eddings!

Yes I just saw the demise of the Tavistock too. So far this month we have had the 2 year trans toddlers reverse ferret, Allison's case and now Tavistock. The tide is turning.

And this is all down to women who have been fighting this for years (notable exceptions include Glinner, Dennis Kavanagh and Mr Menno) particularly the brave, brave feminists who have put their heads above the parapet, supported by thousands (like me) of women who have financially supported them from our captured bunkers.

Also a shout out to Justine and the moderators of Mumsnet, particularly the latter who are unsung heros in managing a contentious subject in such a way that this board has managed to survive (also with bonus humour at times).

One small request @MNHQ - could we have an amnesty for the brilliant posters who were banned due to their passionate defence of women's rights, who contravened the (surely now defunct) posting guidelines?

just saw Tavistock shutting down too?!

Yup, BBC Radio 4 covering it on The World at One now. What a month!

I agree that the DM’s coverage of the risk gender ideology poses to women has been vastly better than that of the Guardian, and it’s a good point that they have political influence. I’m grateful it’s being covered and the issues recognised.

But it still bothers me having The Mail and not the Guardian for an ally. Firstly I think it must reinforce the ideas of those who think GC people are unkind bigots. Secondly, why can’t the left wing press see that IT IS HOMOPHOBIC TO SAY LESBIANS SHOULD ACCEPT PENIS? It’s fucking depressing and it’s stupid and I just don’t get it.

I’ve actually been on the receiving end of the Daily Mail spinning it’s reporting of a crime I was victim of to suit its own agenda. I was really annoyed. i think in this situation it seems to be more aligned with Allison’s views at least.

just saw Tavistock shutting down too?!

if, for example, Allison were to apply for a grant from any high profile left-wing funded organisation for something fairly esoteric, we'd be back to the "SuchAndSuchCorp PAYS for loony lesbian lawyer to read Dutch poetry to hamsters" style headlines, because that's their stock in trade.

That turn of phrase floored me 😅

You're quite right, they would turn on her in a flash and knowing what a caring and compassionate woman Allison is I'm sure she's probably annoyed by the DM using her story to score points against 'lefty' lawyers defending immigrants.