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Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 18

995 replies

ickky · 22/06/2022 20:26

The Tribunal started on 25th April, witness testimony concluded on the 26th May. Closing arguments for council was on the 20th June.

There was also live tweeting from

twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:

AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, senior counsel - barrister for SW
RW = Robin White junior counsel to SW - assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC )
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, senior counsel - barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell junior counsel to GC - assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case

Panel = Judge Goodman, Mr M. Reuby and Ms Darmas

Thread 1 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Thread 2 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4542466-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-2

Thread 3 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4545725-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-3

Thread 4 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4546945-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-4

Thread 5 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4548160-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-5

Thread 6 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4550451-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-6

Thread 7 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4551757-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-7

Thread 8 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4552521-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-8

Thread 9 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553181-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-9

Thread 10 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4553754-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-10

Thread 11 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555145-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-11

Thread 12 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4555687-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-12

Thread 13 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556235-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-13

Thread 14 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556407-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-14

Thread 15 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4556803-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-15

Thread 16 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4557036-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-16

Thread 17 www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4561850-allison-bailey-v-stonewall-employment-tribunal-hearing-thread-17

Allison Bailey - claimant (4-9, 11-13 May)

Witnesses for the claimant:

Dr Nicola Williams - Fair Play for Women (29 April)
Dr Judith Green - A Woman's Place (29 April)
Kate Barker - LGB Alliance (3 May)
Lisa-Marie Taylor - FiLiA (4 May)

Witnesses for the respondents:

Stephen Lue - barrister for GCC (3-4 May)
Zainab Al-Farabi - ex Stonewall (10 May)
Kirrin Medcalf - head of trans inclusion Stonewall (10 May)
Leslie Thomas - barrister at GCC (13 May)
Sanjay Sood Smith - Stonewall (16 May)
Shaan Knan - LGBT consortium - on STAG (16 May)
Rajiv Menon - joint head of chambers (16-17 May)
Maya Sikand - barrister at GCC (17-18 May)
Mia Hakl-Law - HR senior for GCC (18 May)
Judy Khan - barrister at GCC (19-20 May)
Charlie Tennent - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Luke Harvey - clerk at GCC (20 May)
Louise Hooper - Barrister at GCC (20 May)
David Renton - barrister at GCC (20 May, 25 May)
Marc Willers - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Stephen Clark - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Liz Davies - Barrister at GCC (23 May)
Cathryn McGahey - Bar Council Ethics Committee's VC (24 May)
Tom Wainwright - Barrister at GCC (24 May)
Colin Cook - Head clerk at GCC (24 May)
David de Menezes - GCC, Head of Marketing (25 May)
Kathryn Cronin - barrister at GCC (25 May)
Michelle Brewer - barrister at GCC at time, now left and a judge (26 May)
Stephanie Harrison - joint head of chambers (26 May)
Closing arguments for AB, GCC, and SW (20 June)

Allison Bailey's

Witness Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/Witness-Statement-of-Allison-Bailey.pdf

Supplementary Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/C-Supplementary-Witness-Statement.pdf

Closing Statement

allisonbailey.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/CLOSING-SUBMISSIONS-FINAL.pdf

OP posts:
Thread gallery
21
WookeyHole · 27/07/2022 14:38

I'm so glad the ET didn't mince their words over the state of the bundle. I reminds me of a naughty child's school report.

LK1972 · 27/07/2022 14:33

*the saintly feeling in the emoji is coming from hopefully putting this in ways that will not get me deleted.

Also, Mumsnet, are the strict language restrictions on this board still quite as necessary, following this, and Maya's decision, are they being reviewed by anyone?

Notmanybroadbeans · 27/07/2022 14:33

ReneBumsWombats · 27/07/2022 14:29

I don't think the tribunal found that gender identity theory is detrimental to women and lesbians, just that it is a protected belief. And that "terf" used to be a neutral descriptor but has now been entirely taken over as a slur. So you can't get away with saying you didn't mean it as one, much as you can't claim any more that "P*" is just short for Pakistani.

Show quote history

Yes, I've seen that "detrimental" snippet posted a lot on Twitter as if they are the judge's own words, but it is just her description of Allison's protected belief. The judge does not give an opinion on the merits of either side's beliefs.

Loved her comments about the bundle and about the support dog, though. Well, she didn't even have to say anything about the support dog, it speaks (barks? Oh God, not a dog whistle, we hope) for itself.

Thelnebriati · 27/07/2022 14:30

I don't understand the Law Society Gazette summary; I thought that if you won the claim for direct discrimination, the claim for secondary (indirect) discrimination is dropped?

Mumsnut · 27/07/2022 14:30

"Gender identity theory has been found to be detrimental to lesbians and women."

I don't think this is quite accurate, is it? Isn't it rather that the belief that gender identity theory is harmful to lesbians and women, is protected?

EdgeOfACoin · 27/07/2022 14:29

TheKeatingFive · 27/07/2022 14:26

Who or what is RMW?

Am I allowed to ask?

Robin Moira White. Barrister. Represented Stonewall in these proceedings. First transgender barrister in the UK, I believe (mtf).

Often turns up on these boards to, um, engage constructively with the posters here.

ReneBumsWombats · 27/07/2022 14:29

Rainbowshit · 27/07/2022 14:24

This is huge isn't it?

Gender identity theory has been found to be detrimental to lesbians and women.

TERF likened to a racial slur.

Stonewall think they have won, but boy have they lost.

I don't think the tribunal found that gender identity theory is detrimental to women and lesbians, just that it is a protected belief. And that "terf" used to be a neutral descriptor but has now been entirely taken over as a slur. So you can't get away with saying you didn't mean it as one, much as you can't claim any more that "P*" is just short for Pakistani.

LK1972 · 27/07/2022 14:28

@EdgeOfACoin you could be absolutely right, and RMW is entirely uninvolved in any of the bundle shambles.

I am looking forward to the learned explanation of why we're still wrong about everything we say, as so eloquently displayed by that poster on this board.

In fact, I think it would be great for Mumsnet to organize a discussion panel on employment discrimination law, where all views will undoubtedly be represented and argued for, following this monumental ruling Smile

It would give EVERYONE an excellent platform to respond to the questions we have, so surely a public invite could not be declined without losing face? 😇

SummerLobelia · 27/07/2022 14:28

Robin Moira White.

Transwoman barrister who likes to come onto these boards and tell us all off for our wrong think.

She was supporting Stonewall- I think pro bono?

pieami · 27/07/2022 14:28

is Alison liable for Stonewall's court fees?

TheKeatingFive · 27/07/2022 14:26

Who or what is RMW?

Am I allowed to ask?

SummerLobelia · 27/07/2022 14:24

WookeyHole · 27/07/2022 14:22

I would LOVE to see this. Presumably there are some mighty pissed off legal minds at GCC right now.

Show quote history

I am sure they will be assauged by the volume of flowers and cards coming their way to Allison

(Sorry. An occasional foray into Schadenfreud is one of my least attractive traits).

Rainbowshit · 27/07/2022 14:24

This is huge isn't it?

Gender identity theory has been found to be detrimental to lesbians and women.

TERF likened to a racial slur.

Stonewall think they have won, but boy have they lost.

LeniGray · 27/07/2022 14:22

I’m so thrilled for Allison, this result came in much quicker than I expected! Excellent news 👏👏👏

I’m going to make a brew and sit and read through the judgment … the bundles ‘seemed to have been randomly thrown together’. Hmmm … quite. 🫣

WookeyHole · 27/07/2022 14:22

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 27/07/2022 12:27

GCC suing SW would be popcornworthy!

I would LOVE to see this. Presumably there are some mighty pissed off legal minds at GCC right now.

Xenia · 27/07/2022 14:21

Someone has probably posted this Law Society Gazette summary above but here it is. www.lawgazette.co.uk/news/chambers-discriminated-against-barrister-in-gender-critical-row/5113252.article

EdgeOfACoin · 27/07/2022 14:20

LK1972 · 27/07/2022 14:17

Those were the rumours, although we're still awaiting RMW's next appearance on this board, so we would ask to confirm either way GrinGrinGrin

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RMW represented Stonewall rather than GCC, I think?

IDidntKnowItWasAParty · 27/07/2022 14:20

I read that to 'Fairytale of New York' in my head. It very nearly scans.
Love it 😂

MythicalReasonableTwitterUser · 27/07/2022 14:19

Oh, how I wish we had been allowed to record footage of the proceedings. It would be very instructive for companies willing to fork over cash to Stonewall if they could see it. They really do make the best arguments against themselves if they have to attempt straight answers to straight questions.

RedRocketLolly · 27/07/2022 14:19

RandomlyThrownTogether · 27/07/2022 14:14

Great, thanks.

I will seek these out and collate them, it's very useful to have this.

Show quote history

Here you go - twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1197533063963697156?lang=en-GB

Was a comment in court so isn't written in the judgment.

EdgeOfACoin · 27/07/2022 14:18

I wasn't able to follow the hearing at the time.

However, I am genuinely shocked that a chambers submitted such a shambolic bundle of evidence! Even if I had no interest in the outcome of this particular case and wanted to engage GCC on something completely different, why would I use them after that?

LK1972 · 27/07/2022 14:17

Emotionalsupportviper · 27/07/2022 14:14

Wasn't RMW responsible for the bundle?

Those were the rumours, although we're still awaiting RMW's next appearance on this board, so we would ask to confirm either way GrinGrinGrin

TullyApplebottom · 27/07/2022 14:17

ResisterRex · 27/07/2022 13:55

It would be interesting to see what would happen if GCC were to sue SW. IANAL but I'm sure you can never sub-contract out legal risk or responsibility. So I imagine what would happen, is that the decision would say "GCC can't delegate their risk and they took this risk". That would then point to the robustness of SW's advice but probably not provide a finding on it.

for them to sue stonewall they would need to show breach of contract or breach of a duty of care which stonewall owed to them. I cannot see a basis for either claim.
bottom line is this; if someone tries to influence the way you do business and you let them, it’s on you.

Emotionalsupportviper · 27/07/2022 14:14

Wasn't RMW responsible for the bundle?

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