Oh dear. A split.

A family unit doesn't have to be a mum and a dad.

Children do best when raised by their biological parents (on average statistically etc). Having a step parent in the home is a significant risk factor in many ways.

And biological parents require a man and a women...cos you know sex matters.

allmywhat I think it's worse than that, it's expected of women to earn AND do domestic duties including the children.
And I think this most damages low earning women AND their children.

I did say men and women in my post btw.
But I'm not surprised you didn't like it, I didn't expect many on these boards would have. I wouldn't have 5 years ago.

I disagree the answer is: men need to change. That's only partly true.

We need a change where we can create steady fair partnerships between the sexes, where roles are balanced so no one is disadvantaged, and where all opportunities are open to both sexes.

This doesn't seem to be what feminism has given women.

And my point is I think children are suffering.

We need a movement which puts children first. And which forces men and women how to work out together, fairly, how to do that.

Children thrive in secure family units. We absolutely know this. Of course they do, but a family unit doesn't have to be a Mum and Dad.

It has long been a problem for Feminism, the fact that most of us become mothers, with all the physical, hormonal and social elements of that, but at the same time we are trying to be mothers in a system that doesn't really support us.
It's not Feminism that fucks us over when we become mums it's all the other stuff that happens, although some of the policies that have been brought in that you could view as feminist have backfired, I think, for example extended maternity leave. In theory it's lovely that women can (if they have good enough working conditions) take a whole year off work, but when they get back to work they can find themselves shoved to one side, or not in the same role. At the same time, the husband has got used to wife being at home and doing all the domestic chores, as well as all the childcare, and that doesn't help with the "second shift" women end up doing when they get in from work.
What would really help mothers would be fathers being expected to pull their weight with all that, and absent fathers being legally made to pay child support.
There also needs to be a realisation on the part of young men that when they father a child it is as much their financial responsibility as the woman's, and that is sorely lacking ime. Choosing to be a SAHM beyond mat leave does depend on there being a partner able and willing to support the family financially, and that's pretty unusual in my world, where most women have to work as well as men. If they can't because they have been abandoned by the father, they are stuck in a poverty trap of benefits, because child support is treated as optional for men.
I suppose what I am trying to say is that I agree, some feminists have either dismissed the specific biological needs of mothers and their babies, but I have also read lots of posts on here that idolise the idea of motherhood and the choice to take time out from the workplace, without really realising how difficult that would be for most women in the current system.
Motherhood is amazing-when I was pregnant I remember thinking "fuck me, why are women not treated like Goddesses-look what we put our bodies through!" but at the same time I don't want to be back in a world where it's the only thing we do. The women in my family have always worked, always and forever, going back as far as I know, so there has to be a way to honour mothers and the unique bond we have with our kids, but also a system to support us properly when we need to get back out there, and right now that's lacking.
I respect PP, I think she talks a lot of sense, but I don't like the personal spats and social media rows, it just seems childish.
I do agree with her about academic feminists though, in that they seem to live in a theoretical world, and it's far removed from most women's lives.

In any movement there are always 'splits'. There are always different people who believe in different ways of achieving the common goal. They will criticise each other for making 'alliances' with people who others think it's not appropriate to make alliances with, they will disagree on the best tactics to achieve a goal, they will split and rebel.

Why would anyone think this was any different? It's not a 'gotcha' in any way.

I am not really bothered by the 'oh my god, you agree with so and so on this particular point so you must be wrong' crap. The other day some bloke who apparently is involved in a pro paedo organisation wrote an article for the Independent slagging off JK Rowling. So what, does that mean everyone who disagrees with JKR is pro paedophile? No, of course not. But that is the kind of narrative that is thrown at us. It's bullshit.

We don't agree on everything

I also agree with CharleyParleys great post. Motherhood is the great leveller. What is feminism if it isn't supporting women to make the best of your options?

[quote nauticant]It seems the wheels started to fall off the bus earlier this week with Ruth Serwotka talking about "supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male":

twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1470714307210006528[/quote]
Oh that's what this is about. She got called out on that nonsense and then accused any women who took issue of being 'one of PP's flying monkeys' slightly bizarrely.

I think A Woman's Place have done some really good things. But they have also centred men's voices. It seems to me that the
left establishment find it very difficult to prioritise women over men

[quote nauticant]It seems the wheels started to fall off the bus earlier this week with Ruth Serwotka talking about "supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male":

twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1470714307210006528[/quote]
See, when I read stuff like this I do respect the more straight forward approach of the likes of Posie and Karen Davis. They just remind me of my dear old nan "draw your line and never give an inch"

Doesn’t a conservative feminist believes women should have the freedom to shape one’s destiny through equality of opportunity; whereas a left wing feminist believes society should play an active role in elevating women as a way of making up for patriarchal disadvantage?

Then there’s the common ground; men can’t be women for instance.

Everything else (I.e who makes a ‘good feminist’ and who is a role model etc) is just individual opinion.

[quote nauticant]It seems the wheels started to fall off the bus earlier this week with Ruth Serwotka talking about "supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male":

twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1470714307210006528[/quote]
#NoThankYou

Self sacrifice, by men and women, for children and family, is now very much out of fashion.

It may be out of fashion and sneered at, but it is still very much expected, from women. Not so much from men.

Didn’t like your post much because it seemed to be reinforcing that. I’m pretty sure what is needed is for women to self-sacrifice less and for men to step up to the plate.

I think there’s probably a link between the unreasonable expectations on mothers to sacrifice themselves and the horrible generation we’re seeing of fully grown adults with the minds and egos of small children, seething with horrific rage against women and mothers.

As to the OP, I don't believe Posie ever claimed to be feminist and I remember when she posted on these boards.

It seems the wheels started to fall off the bus earlier this week with Ruth Serwotka talking about "supporting a journey to womanhood for those born male":

twitter.com/ruthserwotka/status/1470714307210006528

The people yesterday assuming that we don’t think safeguarding rules should be applied to famous feminists…

The people today thinking women not agreeing with each other means there’s a “split.”

It’s interesting to see how badly TRAs get it wrong when they project their intolerance and tribalism onto their opponents.

And it’s so interesting how blind they are to themselves on account of having self-identified as tolerant and as “independent thinkers.”

Feminism as a whole seems to have an uneasy relationship with motherhood and domesticity. It doesn't matter whether you look at radical feminism or liberal feminism or whichever branch of feminism you care to examine. In my view it's a major shortcoming and failure,
I agree with this and the rest of CharlieParley's post. I don't think feminism has ever got to grips with it, which is kind of bizarre given that we're the sex that gives birth.

I wonder what happened to OP?

Love the way OP confirms the trans movement (of who very few are trans ) has thought police and splits are squashed.

I dont share some of Posies views but I do others. Why is that a problem OP
Do I have to be an unquestioning mindless follower?

I fully support Posie as she makes a lot of sense to me. I have reservations about WPUK although I admire their work a lot. This movement is a broad church but the key point is that sex matters.

Sarah Ditum is a mother. So strange to see her as someone who doesn't value motherhood.
And that video is simply a roll call of feminists that PP does not like along with lots of very personal insults about them.

I wonder who they thought it would play well with? Apart from each other?

It reveals a sneering disdain for most women: who are not like them.

It's the same type of disdain the labour party now has for the working class.

Still, on the positive side, at least we all agree we're adult human females.

Oh how tedious you are OP.
Ditto julieca.

It's purity spirals and intellectual tribalism and RightKindOfFeminist groupthink that allowed all this to proliferate.

It's women from all backgrounds and political allegiances coalescing to push back that has turned the tide, not ivory tower inhabitants gatekeeping while arguing how many RightKindOfFeminist angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Away with your divisive agenda.

I'm feeling the older I get the more I'm becoming aware that much of the liberal ideology, including feminism, is often not great for children.

Children thrive in secure family units. We absolutely know this.

But marriage rates dropping, divorce, blended step families etc, are seen as such a central rights for adults, we can't talk about the true impact on children.

And I get that we are so afraid of a past which enforced women to remain in unhappy abusive realtionships with no power, we almost enshrine these rights for women to choose whats best for them and have autonomy, but I think we're often doing it now at the expense of children.

Self sacrifice, by men and women, for children and family, is now very much out of fashion.

I saw on here earlier today someone suggest life was too short to stay in marriage if you don't get oral sex.

Sod the kids, hey, they'll be OK, eventually?

I realise this sounds like I'm an old reactionary man. But I'm not.
In RL I'm liberal high achieving women.

I'm just realising more and more.
It's not working for the kids,

Having read that Twitter thread, the exchange between Sarah Ditum and Ruth Serwotka does appear to be sneering at and disparaging certain women. That's not on and is a disservice to feminism.