Oh dear. A split.

This thread is way more interesting than I thought it would be! So much to think about. Thanks Charlieparley, your posts always resonate.

Ladies and non-Ladies!!

Check out Twitter
#domesticatedzombie

😀😀

Feminism has talked about motherhood and children for decades, written about it and campaigned on it.

I'd be interested in another thread (although I don't have much time to join in this weekend). There's so much to unpack and talk about here and the choice of thread title a) might be putting some posters off from even reading and b) doesn't do justice to the discussion.

Maybe worth another thread to discuss?

That and the fact that she obviously bleaches her hair and wears lipstick.

Have you outed PP as not a natural blonde?

I also think the pandemic has thrown some of these issues into relief - in many couples where both parents work the issue around childcare is partially solved by school/out of school care. Nothing wrong with that at all. But I think a lot of women felt they were in equal partnerships/had managed to strike the perfect balance. Then during lockdown found that it was just assumed they would be the ones to balance the impossible job of looking after the children and working while the husband was less affected*

*Obviously not all men etc etc. But I think it was very easy for SOME men and women to believe themselves to be in an equal relationship until the normal support structures were removed

Personally I think the idea of universal fixed income could help to allow women who WANTED to to take more time of work to spend with their children, without leaving their family vulnerable to poverty/the sole earner losing their job/their partner leaving etc etc but I don't think many would go for that.

As a single mother who works full time I am Shocked SHOCKED at some of the views on this thread which threaten my lived reality and very existence
But seriously, I agree that the issues around motherhood need to be discussed more, but I think maybe part of the reason is it is such an emotive subject (precisely because it is so important) and because there's normally a complicated mix of choice and circumstances affecting what people do. Its very easy to go on the defensive. I have to admit there have been times when I've read/heard someone saying that they are glad they stayed home/that they felt not going back to work was the right choice for their child, and felt personally attacked even though it wasn't actually aimed at me at all. Plus, I think there is a fear that if we discuss the challenges/downsides of combining motherhood and working, that it plays into the hands of a certain type of person (man) who basically think women belong in the kitchen in a wierd version of the 1950s that never actually existed except for a tiny few. Which I won't (and can't) do.
But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't discuss it - having children (or choosing not to have them, or not being able to have them) are really important to most women's lives. And therefore any version of feminism that ignores it isn't going to be much use to most women's lives. Although, I think even if we did figure out what the perfect balance would be on paper - in reality people are messy and complicated and lead complicated lives. So it is never going to be "fixed" once and for all.

My observation is that many blue tick feminists are very very upset with Posie because she says in 4 words what took them years of academia to point out
🤣🤣🤣
Very true.

She may be happy with her all consuming workaholic lifestyle high flying career but the children will suffer.
Uh huh. But that’s not most women who work is it? Most women have jobs not high flying careers. Most men too. Women just need to be able to have jobs without working much harder than men outside of these jobs. And without maternity fucking them over for years to come. That to me is the thing we haven’t sorted and one of the key aspects that will help to bring women to where we need to be.
Having a mother who is able to earn, able to care for children without the stress of poverty and able to share the load will make families more stable and children safer and happier.
The system is stacked against single mothers, which is why I just will not accept their vilification. When I had a boyfriend who didn’t live with me and my children I was in danger of getting into trouble, simply for being in a couple, because I claimed tax credits and if you are in a couple, even when your finances are completely separate, they can decide that you are no longer single and can cut off your money. If that happens, women can be effectively forced to cohabit with men they are not ready to cohabit with, and that puts children in danger.
The realities of most women lives have nothing to do with the reality of the lives of the top 5% or whatever.
But yes, interesting discussion.

I think you will find that Feminists don’t threaten to kill and rape eachother when they disagree

Sorry, I haven't RTFT. I just think it's quite funny that there's an idea of a 'split' when women have been disagreeing on just about bloody everything many issues and facets of the discussion for many years.

ErMaGAWD someone inform the chief Big Feminist! Women are disagreeing with each other! Argh! Halp! Halp! I'm meeeeeeeeeeeeeelting .....

My observation is that many blue tick feminists are very very upset with Posie because she says in 4 words what took them years of academia to point out, and in one PR campaign she got to the root of the issue and made 'the other side's' argument completely nonsensical and showed the absurdity of the whole thing.

If you've been a feminist for 20 years banging on about it and someone walks into the bar and gets all the attention [and makes your point] in 2 minutes, you're gonna be really pissed off about it.

Unrelated females do pose a risk.

Not the same risk of sexual or physical abuse maybe, but the risks of being a step child in a family are multiple with poor outcomes for social emotional and mental health.

This is easily seen on the threads on here with women who can't cope with or resent step children, particularly when they have their own child.

It's obvious that step children pose a problem for new adult relationships and to new children within a new relationship. They take resources away. Time and money.
This naturally creates resentment, which might manifest differently in men and women, but either way isn't good for kids.

And who brings these risky unrelated men into the home? Mothers.

I've just read a thread by a mother asking how she can stop her DD talking about her dad in front of her new partner.

It's not working. For children or women. The evidence is all over these boards and in the stats.

This has become a very interesting thread. Thanks OP for instigating it! 🙂

Malaga I agree. What I meant by "What is good for a woman is not necessarily good for a family and for a child" is when a women follows only her interests and wishes without regard for the family. She may be happy with her all consuming workaholic lifestyle high flying career but the children will suffer. I do think that men who take this approach also damage the family and really feel for the children when both parents take this path.

Unrelated females do [pose a risk] too.Sadly recent news events, stats, & archetypes & tell us this.

Stats don’t. News stories aren’t data, no matter how shocking. Archetypes created by a misogynist society aren’t information of any kind. Unrelated females pose less of a risk than related males.

I didn't comment on the original Twitter thing but was 😮 at the blatant snobbery from the blue tick guardians of 'feminism' (but only for about 2 minutes as that kind of sneering is sadly not a novel event 🤷🏻‍♀️)

I don't consider myself a 'feminist' by conscious choice and haven't for many years, as the constant purity tests applied by the 'intellectual' or 'educated' and the 'feminism is inherently left wing' guardians of feminism are anathema to me.

I honestly couldn't give a crap what political stance (or none) a woman aligns with, and neither how educated or how well-read on 'feminist theories' she is. Similarly, I care not a jot about the working/parenting decisions a woman makes: whether she has children or not, is a stay-at-home mum, a working mum, works away a lot or never leaves her kids for anything.

But when I see blue ticks such as the two who sparked off PP making the sorts of comments that they did, it irks me.
Why? Because their smug righteousness & superiority complex when looking down on mothers is fucking laughable.

They sit in their judgement about how much more enlightened they are compared with the 'domesticated zombies' and burnish their right-on 'feminist' credentials whilst sneering at those they think are beneath them.

The average working class woman who never went to university, had kids, got married, keeps working after having kids (because that's what you have to do, and that's what your mum, granny, her mum etc did as well) is not lesser to the gatekeepers of 'feminism'.

....Have just read my post back when deciding whether to post it or not, and can see how rambling it is 😳😂
Oh well 🤷🏻‍♀️

What is good for a woman is not necessarily good for a family and for a child.

I think what feminism has missed is that for most women, who are mothers, what is good for family and children is also good for women.

What we needed was this constructed in a fairer way, which protects women, and doesn't limit their choices and opportunities.

I think so far feminism has given us the opportunities but not addressed the remaining question of family roles and how this works for women. Because at the moment it's not working and women and children are suffering.

What is best for children also includes happy well supported parents so we shouldn't think that the shift would be to only support the child.

Both women and children suffer from not having this conversation.