Prisons Judicial Review: Judgement

The prisons issue is what first made me think twice about TWAW btw - The Hudson case.

So angry about this.
Does the judgment suggest we leave it all up to the magical risk assessment processes (in environments where no relevant data is gathered), just like we're meant to leave all the consent issues to the medical 'experts' that don't gather relevant data?

I've been flipping between sadness and rage all day over this hearing. Every time there seems to be some light at the end of the tunnel another train comes hurtling towards women!!

Thinking about the men who are at risk of other men in the male facility... surely they are all going to now need to move to the female prison, for their own safety. But the only way they can do this is by identifying as trans. Isn't that like forcing vulnerable male prisoners to go through a type of state-approved 'conversion therapy', which they are illegalising?

Just catching up with all of this and it's horrific. We are not 'non-trans women' ffs!

Even BBC is having to say the 'rights aren't like pie' argument is falling apart

bbc.in/3jHcqxd?fbclid=IwAR2GBPBWesPvl7YM3BkSdAajg4HQTE9O3k8qrhsHD-6Dj0WGTetKjHOqcx0

And it tells me unequivocally that it's high time the law itself was changed.

But yes, here we are.

I still find it hard to get my head around the fact that males convicted of sexual violence against women can go in women's prisons.

That it's happened.

That it's supported so vocally.

I mean WTF. It's just bizarre. It's obviously completely wrong.

And yet here we are.

Very naively I still find it shocking that the MoJ argued in court for their right to place predatory male born rapists and sex offenders in prisons with vulnerable women. They think it's a good thing.
It's like being in a parallel universe.
Presumably the fact that they were a Stonewall champion (until the last few weeks) means that they will have had to obey Stonewall's rules but now that that they've left will their anti women stance start to shift a bit?

Now this is finished

Finished? Not by a long shot. Especially now that a judge has acknowledged that the MoJ's trans inclusion policy puts female prisoners at risk, acknowledged that the inclusion of male transgender prisoners harms female prisoners and that the rights of female prisoners and male transgender prisoners do indeed conflict, with female prisoners losing rights when male transgender prisoners are included in the female estate.

That judge decided that the rights of male transgender prisoners supersede the rights of female prisoners. If you think that women, especially women's rights campaigners will meekly accept such an injustice, especially when it is inflicted on some of the most vulnerable of us, you don't understand women at all.

No holding back now!

And yes, women going for JRs that is us holding back. Parliament is sovereign in the UK. The legislative stands below. Which is why judges dislike judicial reviews. They ask judges to find that the state acted unreasonable. No judge wants to do that, unless the claimant can demonstrate that the state acted extremely unreasonable. Which is why the chance of succeeding at a judicial review are no higher than 30%. In most cases even less. But the bar is lower in straightforward discrimination cases. And that's where we should now turn.

(IANAL, but have had this explained to me by an actual lawyer. Any mistakes in the above are mine.)

Out of interest, does anyone feel like they've heard this argument from people with a different interest?

Women commit violent sex offences too

It's a people problem that impacts everyone. Not a sex thing. If you're only concerned with one sex then you're being very unfair. Things are actually worse for men so why aren't you doing something about that (instead).

I think maybe in Scotland they don't have any cat a equivalent prisons for women (no idea why very mysterious) so they go to a wing with the men.

I'm really surprised that women are put in the general male population if they are violent sex offenders. If women are incarcerated there, why would transwomen who commit those sorts of offences go in with the women?

Is the idea that prisons should be categorised by what the crime was, instead of sex?

Depressingly, there are men incarcerated in the women's estate who have committed serious sexual crimes against women, despite claims to the contrary www.keep-prisons-single-sex.org.uk/who-are-males-in-women-s-prisons

I would really like to hear if Adam Wagner and the rest of the “rights aren’t pie” legal-men-of-Twitter crew can still justify the increased anxiety and risk that women prisoners have to bear, in order to satisfy law about gender identity. I see that Adam Wagner is silent about it today, although Jo Maugham had a little gloat about it being lawful to increase the suffering of women prisoners.

I wonder if there is a case to say that being locked up with a sex offender is degrading to a woman prisoner and therefore in breach of the ECHR, which I believe the UK is still signed up to.

The ruling is disappointing but anyone reading it can see clearly the nature of the issue women prisoners face here.

Oh ffs, pressed send inadvertently.
DoM, are you absolutely sure about that, and can you cite credible sources?
Because my understanding is that transfer is on the Open Sesame of 'I'm a laydee, me' and that risk assessment if any is post facto. I would like you to be right, but Bayes Theorem....

The right decision.

For people who view women as acceptable collateral damage, yes.

Now this is finished perhaps women will look to support those viulnerable prisoners who coerced into sex for safety or just plain sexually assaulted by male staff or other prisoners.

Dream on. It's nowhere near finished.

What is it today with people telling us where we should be focusing our attention? I'll continue to support the most vulnerable women in society being locked up with males against their will, ta. Sentencing women, who have likely already been abused by men, to an increased risk of sexual assault/rape and trauma is psychopathic.

And the fix for male staff assaulting women, and women assaulting other women is not throwing more dangers into the mix.

The DM has now made the judgment one of its top stories and have updated it to include Karen White.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9750105/High-Court-rules-transgender-women-female-prisons.html

They whole prison thing is a red herring as trans women cannot just self identify into a women's facility. They have to be risk assessed first on a case by case basis

Sexual assaults in women prisons are common and are an issue but they are not made by MtF trans prisoners.

Oh yes they fucking are, the woman who brought the JR was sexually assaulted by one.

The High Court judgement admitted that women are being harmed and that self ID sex offenders are in women's prisons.