James O’Brien

Paris wants the mainstream. So now anything that Paris did or said that doesn't suit the mainstream must be immediately forgotten, because Paris gets what Paris wants - or else.

The entitlement is strong with that one. And yes, sexual assault is beyond the pale but women tend not to have the privilege of having their conduct excused by what happened to them in their past.

I agree Paris has been a major proponent of the "you have to believe I'm a woman" stance which has really backfired, same for Bergdorf.

The anger about this failure has left them all high and dry, a tiny layer of self aggrandising people who are now marooned on fantasy island with no way off.

She is also less provocative and sexual in her writing now

I saw JOB's retweet about Paris being sexually abused at a young age by men. It made me wonder if the stories about taking multiple men home at once, or relishing being catcalled, that were initially recounted in a gleeful boasting tone, are still seen in the same light- it's something that happens to a lot of women who've experienced sexual abuse, that subsequent sexual experiences take on a darker tone once the abuse has been processed.

Of course gay male sexuality is different from women's sexuality so I don't want to assume anything but to Paris on dealing with that.

But she is also part of the problem too as she led the TRA twitter charge at the beginning and pushed the more aggressive TR agenda, trying to redefine what female was and telling women to shut up about women's biology etc. So she is partly responsible for the forceful push back from women imo.

I think she does now want to row it back a bit and concentrate on non-trans things which I don't blame her for as it must be exhausting.
She is also less provocative and sexual in her writing now she realises that women / girls in general are fearful of men and unwanted sexual attention and do their best to avoid it and not encourage it in everyday life.
I think she initially thought the exact opposite - that we are all little minxes -eyeing up men wherever we went - but I think she gets it's the exact opposite to that now.

But then I think - but you started this love!
so I flip flop on my opinion of her

I heard that JOB interview with a women pointing out the dangers in a changing room and him literally not caring and being very rude and dismissive to her. That was a couple of years ago now though and I am sure his opinion has changed but he is stuck.
I think he is friends with Paris too.
But the issue isn't Paris using the ladies loos or not when she is out shopping or in a restaurant.
The issue is bigger that Paris or any individual trans person - you can't support policy to change society's definitions of who is male / female or encouraging medical treatments on children because you know and like one nice trans person no matter how nice they are or how much you like them.

For me the issue is prisons/ hospitals/sports/ refuges / giving children puberty blockers etc.

I can't remember if it was O'Brien or Majid Nawaaz who spoke to a caller last year who suggested unisex toilets would solve the issue.

Whichever one it was was very enthusiastic about having solved the problem ((because it's all just about toilets of course) so perhaps that was the great solution he was going to announce?

@Siablue I feel for transwomen (not so much for Lees in particular because they can be really unpleasant to women) but I don't see a solution - councils/businesses etc are not going to provide 3 diff sets of toilets (and if they did I'll bet the rent that transwomen would refuse to use 'trans' facilities on principle).

The most likely outcome will be more and more unisex toilets.

I seem to remember him mentioning (before lockdown and all the JKR stuff) that he had come up with a solution to the trans rights/womens rights problem

seriously? I hope he does discuss it on air. But given his air of meekness in this discussion perhaps he has already shared it with someone who told him why whatever it was, wasn't going to work.

He doesn’t sound like he has come up with a solution to anything. He has made all the trans rights activists and feminists hate him.

Perhaps he should call his next book How to Wrong.

The reason it is bad to get fixated on the toilet issue is that most people don’t care and it allows OJ to talk bollocks about genital inspections. If you need to be admitted to hospital we know what your biological sex is because it is on your medical records. The Karen White situation was preventable but no one prevented it. For some trans people giving them a private room would solve the problem.

I do feel for Paris Lees (I know that is not a popular opinion on here). I think we need to come up with a solution that protects people who are actually trans (for want of a better way of putting it) and doesn’t leave it open to any one to abuse.

I reckon he'll propose third spaces (revolutionary!) and then TRA's will say it's like putting a yellow star on them. Then he'll back down and say TW are W (although he wouldn't shag a woman with a penis)

Sadly, (because I quite like him) he's a misogynist. The tells are all there in that interview on this thread with a MNer.

• He tells her of for speaking too fast - he bloody speaks fast and she wasn't.
• She explains she's nervous. She says I'm nervous because of the reaction I had. - He says something like 'try being me'.
• She says he knows men aren't women and he actually scolds her for most of the remainder of the call - don't tell me what I know, blah blah blah.

I do think he's stuck between a rock and a hard place here. His listeners know what women are, HE knows what women are, but he absolutely can't alienate all his friends and worse - be on the same side as Trump on this. What's a fella to do?!!

Sell out women of course.

He'll either do a full reverse ferret and make a grovelling apology while repeating The Glorious Mantra, or he won't mention it again, I think.

I wonder if JOB will open it up this morning. I seem to remember him mentioning (before lockdown and all the JKR stuff) that he had come up with a solution to the trans rights/womens rights problem (gee thank you so much) and was going to discuss it on air soon, but never did.

I will be standing by the viper phone if so....

OJ and JOB can inspect genitals in the gents to their hearts content for all I care.

Women's toilets are for females.
.

Oh dear James, you have finally met your match. Women are saying NO.

i thinks its just misogyny- they hate women saying no- esp to transwomen.
how dare they?
they keep talking about genitals- youre obsessed with genitals- with the odd infertile woman thrown in there coz theyre like tw.

i wonder if james can see that its mostly men desperately redifining women to suit themselves.

I’m starting to think it’s just good old fashioned lesbophobia that justifies people (men) saying lesbians look like men.

I’ve know a fair few butch lesbians (disclaimer- I am hetero so am very willing to listen to what actual lesbians say about this) and whilst they weren’t feminine they were obviously NOT men.

It’s like female bodybuilders- the majority don’t look like men but it’s thrown at them all the time.

oj is asking if james wants to set up genital inspection units and saying that butch lesbians are being thrown out the loos.

sigh.

So James O'B is asked what a woman is and he claims he is 'confused and acutely conscious of the pain caused by holding any strong public opinion on the issue.'

I mean ... are there any other basic nouns he can't define?

What's a chair James?
'all I can say is I am deeply confused and acutely conscious of the pain caused by holding any strong public opinion on the issue'.

Have a word with yourself, James.

James O’Brian needs to listen to James Lindsay:

twitter.com/ConceptualJames

This came from James O'Brian literally HOURS after he posted about how "cancel culture" isn't real and is just a big excuse made up by bigots. 2020 is actually surreal at times.

twitter.com/mrjamesob/status/1279716344611713025

WTF is Owen even talking about?

No one would confuse a butch lesbian for a transwoman. They have the least interchangeable wardrobes, for starters.

Butches occasionally get stopped because people think they are men (or more often boys!) but usually only for a split second and usually because they were seen from behind.
I’ve never known a butch woman be anything more than momentarily annoyed (more often momentarily amused).

Methinks the ‘Butch lesbians’ reporting to Owen are not of the old fashioned adult-human-female variety (might be one or two in the sold-my-soul-to-Stonewall-Diva category, I suppose).

Applause for @Chattylion... superb resource list.

Thank you Chatty for providing all those links.

So actually the removal of the conventional female single-sex communal toilets is a major female privacy, safety and dignity issue.

YY.

I don’t really know who this guy is, but from his tweet in the OP, he’s been asked what a woman is and his reply starts off that he’s ‘incredibly confused’.

He's got a fair amount of previous on this issue.

Also the Wahaca thing is not a solution for many women. Many of us need access to a large communal areas with sinks and mirrors which is female only too, for millions of reasons which don’t work in small self contained cubicles including dealing with our small children and their pushchairs.
Also because men leave their doors open and leave piss on seats in mixed sex toilets.

So actually the removal of the conventional female single-sex communal toilets is a major female privacy, safety and dignity issue. Also, and unsurprisingly, this causes a lot of issues for girls and boys in schools that have changed toilets to be mixed sex.

Great speech on this issue here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3427591-WPUK-Bath-fascinating-important-speech-by-Clara-Greed-Professor-of-Inclusive-Urban-Planning-specialist-in-toilet-provision-with-particular-emphasis-upon-womens-needs

This thread has reasons why women need women’s toilets:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

We have had a bajillion threads about the female experience of using gender neutral/mixed/unisex toilets. These include being scared: of sexual assault or of being filmed as wank material, listened to on the toilet, of feeling embarrassed at being close to men when toileting, being flashed at because men won’t close their cubicle doors, or the disgusting monotony of having to clear up strange men’s piss on the floor and seat before women can use the cubicle:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3577718-Eddy-Izzards-says-women-should-be-forced-to-share-bathrooms-with-men?pg=1&order=

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3572891-Everyman-Cinemas-and-toilets-for-everyone-a-womans-review-AIBU

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3569596-Workplace-toilets-ACAS

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3559632-Uniex-toilets-who-likes-them

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3570988-Law-on-unisex-loos-in-places-of-entertainment

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3571591-Asked-to-do-work-survey-on-transgender-in-workplace-and-includes-gender-neutral-toilets-Help-me-respond-in-600-words

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3555187-NZ-Ambassador-on-trial-for-planting-hidden-camera-in-unisex-toilets-of-Washington-DC-embassy

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3554058-Daily-Mail-Dominic-Lawson-Article-on-Gender-Neutral-Toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3553562-A-Day-Using-Restaurant-Toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3550795-Words-matter-unisex-toilets-are-mixed-sex

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3546428--Gender-neutral-toilets-first-experience

This thread has tips for anyone wanting to improve design in women’s toilets:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3548768-Look-at-the-design-of-the-toilet-Some-actually-asked-a-woman

This thread links to a key legal resource:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3577063-The-Louise-Whitfield-legal-document-on-right-to-same-sex-facilities

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3575919-Toilets-at-childs-school

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3506533-Mixed-sex-toilets-in-schools-childrens-actual-views

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3572220-The-law-on-mixed-sex-toilets-in-schools

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3567313-UK-school-toilets-this-never-happens

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3561963-US-Female-student-expelled-for-kneeing-boy-in-the-groin-while-in-girls-bathroom?pg=2&order=

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3557951-Walkout-at-US-highschool-on-transgender-use-of-toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3557203-New-Debate-Kit-Unisex-Toilets-downloadable-from-the-RI-for-schools

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3581606-Resource-thread-with-concrete-examples-of-men-being-grim-in-unisex-toilets

Thread that talks about men wanking and pissing in their work toilets and posting those pissing and wanking videos online. Yet another reason for preserving female-only toilets:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3605120-Munroe-Childline-s-first-LGBT-campaigner

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3611447-Potential-Systemic-Safeguarding-failures-in-NSPCC-Childline-illustrated-by-appointment-ending-of-relationship-with-Munroe-Bergdorf-Thread-2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3611483-Single-Sex-Mixed-Sex-and-Gimp-Sex-toilets

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3708072-Join-the-mixed-sex-loo-resistance-movement?pg=1&order=

This thread ^ has ideas for ways to practically act/comment against non-single-sex toilet provision

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3709300-Evidence-that-women-generally-prefer-single-sex-lavatories

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3749831-Share-your-experiences-of-gender-neutral-toilets?pg=1&order=

Hopefully James O’Brien or management at Wahaca will pop over and read some of these