They are watching...

Thanks, BigDesk
And you hit the nail on the head with your description of them, haha. They're really rather fascinating in a way though, albeit infuriating. So totally convinced they're women, while acting so undeniably like entitled men. And so wilfully ignorant of what being a woman actually involves, and how much impact biology has on our lives.

We know they're watching. Every so often they send someone over to tell the silly women off for having opinions and vaginas and stuff.

Punternet does too, which is why you always get a "happy hooker" and a "gentleman punter" on prostitution threads.

Must be nice to have enough time on your hands that that kind of thing is viable. But then again, when you have male privilege...

I tipped my toe into the debate sub for a while, but found it difficult to argue logic with 14 year old boys. I lurk occasionally, though. I'm enjoying them trying to define 'trans'. A lot of fragile egos to keep happy.

You do good work there, miss.

Thanks, scissorcisters
I'm not too bothered by it, thankfully, as I have a pretty thick skin. But - like you - it makes me furious that the trans activists can be so misogynistic, and act like hateful MRAs...and still be supported while women and our rights are shoved under the bus
Because our recognition of biology and gender socialisation is evil bigotry, apparently

Their agenda duh!

@MissiAmphetamine I am so sorry you have had to go through that. I'm getting really fucking angry about this. I had no idea of the abuse women were getting until recently, just the standard "Trans are the most beautiful delicate vunerable people on earth". And I was buying it. Truthfully I have seen no hate from so called Terfs in all that I have read just facts. People need to see the actual hate crimes TRAs are committing whilst using innocent children to push there agenda. Thank you for sharing and again so sorry you had to deal with that shit.

I'm only really on reddit for the debate sub and gender critical subs, and they have never, ever, come even close to a non-circular definition.

Because they don't have one.

"Woman" according to them, is whatever a man says it is!

Choc I suspect hell will freeze over before we ever get given a definition. Still going to keep asking though.

I tried that on a debate sub. After trying various misdirects, the previously vociferous debater just stopped replying.

All I asked was a very simple, non circular definition (I defined circular definition after he tried to debate that too) - I gave my own, non-circular, clearly defined definitions.

He couldn't.

Oh, as they are watching Could we get a definition of woman please? Preferably one without any circular logic.

The some of the commenters on that subreddit, are the same ones who sent me, and other GC women, such gems as these (under their own usual nicknames, as wells as throwaway accounts) : m.imgur.com/a/ghSLi

So I'd say their opinion on whether or not anything is sane or decent, can be safely ignored.

(Warning, they're potentially rather upsetting to read, as they reference traumatic sexual experiences I discussed on other subreddits, and are very misogynistic.)

Yes indeed - 2 sons by CS.

Saying that the word 'woman' is defined by biology isn't reductionist. Those women themselves purely defined by a dictionary definition. A definition for a word is just how language works. Transwomen want to change the definition of a word, so it includes them, yet they can't give a solid definition for that word that we could put in a dictionary, so I reject that on the two grounds that we have a perfectly good definition already, and I don't think it helps women to change it, and because they don't actually have something to replace it with, which offends me linguistically.

Bipedal means having two legs. Calling humans bipedal doesn't reduce people to their legs, doesn't negate the humanity of people with fewer than 2 legs, it's just a word, with a definition, which describes reality.

I have noticed a change in how posters who identify as Trans are dealing with forums like Munsnet. where in the past it was very aggressive and mansplaining, now there is a veneer of agreement with the OPs, without shifting an inch on their position, but that non aggressive approach neutralises the argument. And coming in as teams who then take over the thread, lots of polite validation of each other "thank you for your educating views, or you are so clever, I am learning so much about my self from you" fawning stuff like that.

That should read- I've never conformed to the gender role society would have me play. And at the end of my rant I meant to say no man gets to ....

I am a woman because of my physical reality. Nothing to do with identity. Fuck identity and fuck gender. I wasn't identified as female at birth- I was observed to be female. I've conformed to the gender role society would have me play as a girl- so I transcend gender, mix gender, fuck with gender. Whatever. Being a woman isn't a feeling- its my DNA, my chromosomes, my physical characteristics. It is what I am like it or not- and as a child and adolescent I didn't like it- I wanted to be male, have the power freedom and opportunities that went with having a penis. I grew up though, to embrace my femaleness and to love myself and my body. Thank goodness I wasn't being raised now- I'd probably have ended up sterilised. I have been abused all my life for being female. And I was born in a part of the world where girls and women have it relatively easy- I never had my genitals cut, or had to marry anyone, or risked death for 'dishonouring' my family. Even so- I have been abused for being female all of my life in small every day sexist ways to more serious familial sexual abuse when I was a young girl. Nobody gets to rename me 'cis' or claim the name of woman, to define me, or enter my safe spaces.

It's not reductionist, Caryl, though it's a common misconception about radical feminism that it is in some way a form of biological determinism.

My position is this: I am smaller and weaker than most men. I am also vulnerable when pregnant and looking after a small child. That's biology. It should be irrelevant, because those facts in no way undermine my personhood, moral or political agency - that's feminism. But without acknowledging biology, it becomes impossible to name and explain where sex-based oppression comes from. Without acknowledging the reality of sex, sex-based oppression becomes as random as, say, deciding one day to pay blue eyed people 70% less, or denying them the vote, or denying them education, or cutting off bits of their genitals or forcing them to give birth if they get pregnant, or leaving them as the class of people overwhelmingly on the receiving end of sexual violence from the other class of people.

I happen to believe biology has to be acknowledged because of its role in explaining the oppression women historically and cross culturally are subjected to. To deny that it's important is to be like the sort of white person who blithely says "you know, I genuinely don't see the colour of people's skin..." It's an insult to the lived experience of people who find themselves treated differently because of their colour to pretend it's unimportant. Likewise biological sex. To deny the historical importance of biological sex in women's political and economic experiences of the world is to deny women the ability to talk about why they get a shit deal in a lot of cultures, a lot of the time.

I'm a feminist because I believe biological sex shouldn't matter when it comes to most of the important issues about being a human being.

They all sound about 16 ...

Why do you say "nothing more"?

The only thing that makes me a woman is my biology. What else would make me a woman that isn't something that is based on a stereotype?

M0stlyBowlingHedgehog love your way with words!

Fuck off (waves)

Im guessing she gave birth to two sons by cs?

How did that happen Choc? If you want to share?

I'm waiting for them to co-opt that too - after all, I'm a woman, a biological female, XX, vagina, uterus and all, and yet, I've had 2 penises surgically removed.

A golden opportunity to point out that women can have penises, but they would have to talk about icky women stuff, so perhaps not.

Waves to our new "friends".

So a bunch of women (us) who are predominantly mothers (have been impregnated through our vaginas via penis-in-vagina sex, grown a baby in our uterus with eggs from our ovaries, pushed said baby back out our vagina or had major abdominal surgery, then had to do the whole juggling life commitments - job, other caring responsibilities etc. - that come with motherhood) think biology is more real than an internal feeling of femininity.

Colour me surprised.

Live with it, chaps.