2001 channel 4 documentary on porn

diattany, I agree with "she didn't realise how bad it was going to be until it was too late" and that is why I have a big problem with the "but she chooses" to do it" stance. It's often the frog in cold/boiling water analogy - just like in DV situations. And supposedly ethical porn just doesn't cut it for men like this, whether participants or viewers, because it's not the sex itself that is the draw.

Thanks for the links. I'm familiar with Shelley Lubben and Robert Jensen but will read again. The reenactment link looks exactly like what I'm looking for. Cheers.

I agree dittany. I was very disturbed by that image of wanking men getting ready to gang rape a woman.

Why? Why do they do it? I can see that some of them are psychopaths like MH, but they can't all be like that. Do they just delude themselves that the women don't mind?

I don't want to think that it is simply that there are an awful lot of men who are evil women hating fucks who enjoy treating women like this.

I agree again the documentary was very powerful because the men came across as so disgustingly awful in it.

One who disturbed me in particular was the youngish chap in the black T-shirt who was from some biggish company. He looked like a normal average guy but the way he looked at Felicity was chilling. He sort of smirked and raked his eyes over her - you could see he was thinking about how to exploit her and the bastard was smirking about the abuse to come that she was quite obviously naive about. He fucking terrified me as well. Actually all the men did.

I would suggest checking out Shelley Lubben's website and having a look for her videos on youtube. She does have a religious agenda but, aside from that, has some powerful messages about the effect of the abuse on women in the porn industry.

So, back to the interesting and important discussion that we feminists are having in our feminist forum about abuse and violence against real women in the real world.

Does anybody have any links to info or analysis about why women who have suffered abuse or who have self esteem issues can end up in porn. I can see that these women are vulnerable and don't value themselves and are reliving the sorts of experiences that have so hurt them. I get all that but would be really interested in some analysis that would help me to gather my thoughts on this. Thanks.

this seemsto have nosedived

Andre - Perhaps your daughter might like an alternative consideration of viewpoint from that which she is being offered in the domestic sphere of her parental homelife. Many posters on here are engagingly knowledgeable about such subjects as pornography, page 3, objectification and even the alternative vote as you will see from the ever popular 'Discussions of the day' topic listed above on the top right of this page - discussions picked by the women who run Mumsnet! I am assuming that even you will not dismiss a large number of posters as intellectually challenged, both linguistically, emotionally and in terms of their empathic skills, when every few minutes you are presented, most thoroughly and refreshingly, with such evidence to the contrary. As you have been so earnestly bringing up your daughter to teach her about love, humanity and respect for others as well as having respect for herself, consideration of myriad viewpoints, both wide ranging and narrow, would indeed be a useful lesson for her to adopt in her professional and home lives and of course in pursuit of her romantic relationships.

it's just not a productive use of time to engage with this twat

Andre - you are right. I am not a Martian. I had not considered the efficacy of your words. On consideration, I find that I am constituted as an outraged viewer of the documentary. How that manifests itself in my real life and in my posts on Mumsnet you have clearly understood. I find that I am able to defend my position and recognise the position of Max Hardcore and that I am able to fully comprehend Dittany's words to you and to others who are posting on this thread. Yes, the documentary made me feel uncomfortable but not in a sexual sense. Possibly in a feminine sense as my feminine sensibilities were severely disrupted by a man behaving to another human being (and not a Martian )as Max Hardcore clearly is. I feel outraged and shocked, yes, as my initial thought process kicked in. My discombobulation continued as I viewed the footage of poor Felicity. However, my support of others' position remains and I, for one, prefer be mindful of their acknowledged standpoint and appreciative of others who are also mindful of the Max Hardcore as psychopath position (indeed this is my own). I hope you understand.

Sorry xposts with PAFPM. You are right.

Andre can't you see how creepy, offensive and downright fucking rude it is to compare a bunch a feminists on a parenting forum to Islamic extremist misogynists who support the stoning of women?

Jesus man, This Is Not About You (this is not the first time I have posted this to you). You are not speaking out about anything - you are posting pompous offensive twaddle on an internet forum. Get a grip.

We are trying to have a discussion about rape, abuse and violence to women in the porn industry - an industry that is tolerated, indeed condoned by the society that we have to live in.

Your posts are derailing and extremely offensive. Don't you know any good MRA forums? - they would welcome you with open arms, you would have much more fun there than here.

Could we just freeze Andre out, by completely ignoring him

Responding just feeds the attention-seeking

He will get bored after a while and piss off back to RapeIsLove.com or somesuch place where he will be welcomed as the astute, knowledgeable and entitled being he clearly thinks he is

msrisotto There was this incredible politician in Pakistan I heard about recently who spoke out against the blasphemy laws. He also spoke out about a woman who was sentenced to be stoned to death. He said: I don't care if I'm the last person in Pakistan to speak against this and they kill me for it, I know it's wrong. A little while later he was assassinated. This happened recently. I told my daughter about this man who spoke out for a woman and was prepared to be in a minority of one. I asked her to consider whether it was worthwhile. I asked her to consider how much faith is required in order to say: even if I'm the very last one, still I'll say what I think. It requires faith that it's worth it in itself, and faith in the possibility that others might hear and not let what the man said die with him. I asked her what she would do.

I don't care if I'm outnumbered or what everyone else defines as the 'real point of the conversation'.

No I haven't seen that. I watched the link earlier to the interview with 'Belladonna' which was terribly sad. The way that poor girl kept smiling and then broke down when the interviewer asked her why .

"the real point of a conversation is not what you define it to be"

Andre - Everyone else is trying to talk about what they consider to be the real point of the conversation. You don't hold any secret as to what the real point of the conversation is and you're outnumbered here.

dittany, the real point of a conversation is not what you define it to be. You are not the custodian of such things. No amount of trying to close down the discussion, shrieks of 'rapist', attempts to get people banned, obscenities, insults, accusations, pointing to headers, defining what is allowed and not allowed, what is feminism, what is not, changes this. You are a serious control freak. I have a quote which fits you perfectly: -

"The matriarchal feminists became the big mothers, and still trying to boss all women, telling us what is and what is not acceptable behaviour. They are unwilling to allow any difference of opinion, and, like the Giantess of the Nursery, they forbid different behaviour."

"The matriarchal feminists won't embrace healthy argument. Instead, if you don't go along with Big Sister or Big Mother, you cannot call yourself a feminist."

Nancy Friday, 'Our Mothers/Ourselves'