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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

2001 channel 4 documentary on porn

533 replies

darleneconnor · 04/04/2011 13:00

hcdocu.blogspot.com/

The best anti-porn evidence I've seen.

(Please watch with caution, some scenes are upsetting)

OP posts:
FuppyGish · 10/04/2011 14:03

Good points thank you, I think it was interesting to see the societal conditioning of 'don't scream/shout/cause a scene' in action as well. I could see she felt frozen but society tells you you should be nice to everyone and not cause a fuss so she just sort of got on with it.

It shocked me that MH did it all on film too (the Chnl 4 doc), if he acts like that with them there what the hell is he like when there's no one but his cronies watching?

dittany · 10/04/2011 13:36

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Beachcomber · 10/04/2011 13:15

No, I don't think her using the lubricant is implied consent at all. She was in a situation of being coerced; she was naked in unfamiliar surroundings and fully clothed men frightening her and pressuring her. We cannot put aside the element of money/vulnerability as they are part and parcel of the whole thing.

MH raping her like that within seconds of meeting her, is a manipulative technique to unnerve/destabilise her and put her in a context. (His context of fucked up misogyny - the 'rules' by which the real world functions have already been blown apart by him raping her on film in front of other people as though he was doing nothing more than cracking open a beer.)

He has already put his cock up her anus and vagina so she might as well get on with things now and at least do a scene and get paid for having his cock in her. Plus she was already in a state of dissociation due to him raping her.

Remember she went there 'just to talk'. Within seconds she had been raped and penetrated - minutes later she was doing extremely hardcore violent porn with a psychopath.

Techniques like these are used on girls and women in prostitution too.

FuppyGish · 10/04/2011 12:25

Beachcomber - thank you, very helpful post.

This documentary has sparked a lot of discussion in my household. I was talking to DP this morning about the bit where MH just starts having sex with Felicity and it brought up all sorts of questions... things we discussed around:

He didn't gain explicit consent from her before doing it, therefore surely it is rape. But was her using the lubricant on him implied consent? (leaving aside the coercion/money aspects/her vulnerability for now).

About how you could see from her face how she really felt and that she really didn't know how the hell to stop it or say no or get out of there. Reminded me a lot of myself when I was 16 with 24 year old men, the not knowing what the hell to do and how to get out of the situation Sad

About how in relationships you wouldnt get explicit consent each time you had sex but you would obviously get implied consent, I suppose I mean you kiss you partner, he kisses you back, things progress, at each stage you would assume that if your partner responds then they are consenting. Not quite sure why we started talking about this but it followed on from talking about explicit consent I think.

It was obvious that the nasty pimp took her to MH to get her to see everything else as 'normal' almost and at least 'better than that'.

I think it also shocked me how low Felicity's self esteem was that she would listen to MH's rather obvious tricks to try to get her to carry on and actually fall for it. His 'logic' was along the lines of that I use on my 6 year old 'I bet you can't get dressed in 2 minutes' type stuff. The fact that she actually 'broke' under it showed me that she was obviously in a very difficult place emotionally, and just the sort of person they prey on Sad

Sorry just rambling. Documentary has raised a lot of questions/thoughts with me.

dittany · 10/04/2011 11:02

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Beachcomber · 10/04/2011 10:25

Thank you. Sorry about the woman/women typos - must proofread!

wubblybubbly · 10/04/2011 09:29

Beachcomber, fantastic post, thank you.

Beachcomber · 10/04/2011 09:18

Just to precise, after what happened upthread, I am of course quoting the bastards in porn with my use of the word 'whore'.

Beachcomber · 10/04/2011 09:14

Hi FuppyGish. Your question is interesting because it is looking at consent.

If we take the example of the women in the gang bang scene in the documentary, we could say that we know almost nothing about this women, right? We don't see her or hear her views. We can only assume that she had agreed to be filmed in this way because generally in most porn, the women have at some point agreed to be filmed and have those images distributed.

It is my understanding that the 'consent' documents in porn are about the right of the producer to film and distribute the images.

The women do also tend to fill out that hideous form with the list of acts that they agree to submit to.

For some people, the above means that the women has consented.

For a lot of feminists, the above doesn't mean shit. These are the reasons why;

The woman is being coerced, thereby consent is not freely given and is null. Women in porn are coerced by money, emotional blackmail and abuse, force, violence, drugs, etc.

Women are often told that certain things will happen in a scene and then when they get there, this is changed. It is difficult for the women to back out - we saw evidence of this in the documentary. The woman is no longer freely consenting however.

Women may 'consent' to do a gang bang - then once they start doing it, they may wish to stop - it is almost impossible for a woman to stop what is happening. Do you ever see a man asking a woman if she is still consenting to dick/slap/verbal abuse/painful penetration/ number X in a porn film?

A lot of woman go into the state of dissociation during a scene - they separate from themselves and go numb - they are in a state of shock and separating from their bodies in order to get through the ordeal. Women in this state are no longer consenting but they are unable to do anything about it.

Then we have the issue that so many (nearly all) women in porn are damaged by past abuse and or abandonment issues. Porn merchants purposely seek out women like this in order to exploit them. One could say that these women are 'coerced' by their emotional damage to act in self destructive ways. These are certainly women who are very vulnerable to coercion.

On the basis of the above, I take the view that women do not give meaningful consent to the acts in porn. This view is expressed by many of the men who work in porn - they speak about how 'you can get some whores to do anything by using method x, y or z'. They are perfectly aware that there is not meaningful consent for what they are doing.

Therefore I think that the vast vast majority of porn is made without meaningful consent from the women, therefore it is rape. I have exactly the same thoughts about prostitution. Indeed, for me porn is filmed prostitution.

On this thinking the woman in the gang bang scene is being raped.

A lot of women who are out of porn say exactly the above and they are able to look back and say that they were being raped. I think what I do from listening to those women.

StewieGriffinsMom · 10/04/2011 08:17

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msrisotto · 10/04/2011 08:15

Mumble. I am saddened by your posts.

"The sex is real the abuse isn't" - Did you watch the documentary? If you did, you will see that firstly, she had very clear boundaries which she made very clear to her 'agent'. He ignored those boundaries as basically, sex that hurts, is more lucrative and he took her to Max Hardcore's place to break her will and go against her wishes for his monetary gain. This is abuse.

Secondly, the minute she met Max Hardcore, he had sex with her. She did not initiate this, was not an active participant, did not get paid, this was not part of a contract etc therefore there was NO motivation for her to consent to this act, as such it was rape. This is abuse.

I think they thing you are not understanding is that this was against her wishes, she didn't like it, didn't want it and it hurts. None of this is acceptable and if you can't understand this then you should be worried because you've been desensitised to women's pain and this is a moral deficit.

mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 23:33

Also, you watched the porn on this doc - does that mean you've chosen to watch Max hardcore?

mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 23:32

I emplained my lack of empathy. I did feel great sypathy for her and all others involved.

In terms of me watching porn - no i don;t watch as doesn;t really interest me. Nevr sure when people find the 'right time' to watch it to be honest. Specially with kids in house - folks can do what they wish [is necro and beastially is it legal - not sure? Sorry) But I have heard and know about death/animals. I believe mutilation was in a documentary as well - I really don;t like to watch that stuff personally.

Sorry if that was unclear

dittany · 09/04/2011 23:20

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dittany · 09/04/2011 23:18

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mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 23:14

I was outraged by the situation - not by the documentary, pologies for not getting that accross

Apparently this evening: I am stupid, self loathing and not fit to teach and am about to be deleted. So er thanks for the adivde and opinions.

Night

FuppyGish · 09/04/2011 23:13

I've been lurking and have watched the documentary, thank you op for the link.

Agree with pretty much everything thats been said (by the sensible posters obviously not the porn apologists) but do have one question that may be a bit stupid.

I think upthread someone said that the lady in the wrestling ring scene (not Felicity) was being raped. Was that said because she wasn't in the right mental state to give consent? I'm asking because I assumed that she had consented to be there (putting aside the hideousness of the whole situation) and to take part in the disgusting 'gangbang'?

I also saw various people say that Felicity was raped. Again was this because she was coerced into giving 'consent' and was again not in a fit state to give such consent? Or was the rape comment relating to the horrific choking by Max Hardcore?

dittany · 09/04/2011 23:12

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dittany · 09/04/2011 23:09

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dittany · 09/04/2011 23:06

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sethstarkaddersmackerel · 09/04/2011 22:50

you're criticizing a rape victim for not having done 'basic research' as you call it.

toddlerwrangler · 09/04/2011 22:48

But you have already stated that you were not shocked or outraged?

mumblecrumble · 09/04/2011 22:38

No, i cannot empathise with her. When I decide to become a model and leave my 5 year old girl for three weeks to shag men for £600 dollar a pop I may be able to.

But not with this body.

She talked about Max hardcore so she obviously knew something about him.

Agree him penatrating her before speaking to her was nasty. I didn;t say that lack of research = deserving to be raped. please be careful with that kind of language.

StewieGriffinsMom · 09/04/2011 22:36

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toddlerwrangler · 09/04/2011 22:33

Do have to agree with ^K999* that the SAW series does not seem to discriminate when it comes to who gets sliced and diced!