America's Gun Control

That's not how the argument works. They're talking about USING guns illegally, there are not an act, like theft, they are an actual object.

Britons are literally BETTER EDUCATED by most international standards. They have the best higher education system in the world, and were right to vote for Brexit. Thinking that stopping boats of unvetted military-age men from entering your country illegal is somehow wrong, rather shows your own lack of intelligence route111. Obviously the majority of Americans are stupid and Brits are smarter. I mean, average national IQ 98 vs 100.

Imagine being that thick and accusing others of being ignorant and poorly educated. Now that you've been somewhat educated by someone smarter than you, you can run along.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/ron-desantis-florida-gun-law_n_642b0db7e4b0ba5d603b4d65

No brain cells!

I'm incredibly anti-gun. And I totally agree the US need a radical change around gun laws.

But the problem isn't simple. There are loads of elements to it. The US political parties have been significantly funded by donations from the NRA in the past - particularly the Republican party. Democrats steer clear of the NRA nowadays but they heavily funded as recently as Trumps campaign.

Then you have Americans who strongly believe in their right to bear arms. Their second amendment rights. They'd consider gun laws as taking away their freedoms.

On top of this you have the cycle of violence that many US citizens are deeply embedded in. They choose to buy guns to protect themselves. They're scared of others with guns. So they get guns. If you look at NRA figures, it's well known that after school shootings the sale of guns goes up. During covid the sale of guns went through the roof.

America is a very paranoid nation. But at the same time, wouldn't you be paranoid if there was a possibility of encountering some idiot with a gun on the street? It's a vicious cycle.

‘We were at a US National Park last summer and there were signs about no open carry in the toilet blocks. ‘

The very people who want to open carry are exactly the ones who shouldn’t be allowed to.

That's rather the point I was trying to make but obviously not clearly enough. But legal gun owners don't perceive themselves as potential criminals - see Florenz's posts on this thread.

@Britinme it's a bit like the thing about men in women's changing rooms. The threads where some entitled dad decides that he's got the right to change his daughter in the female changing room rather than taking her with him into the men's):

"I can't take her into the men's, there are strange men in there"
"To us you're a strange man in a space we're trying to change in"
"But I'm a good guy, I'm not going to do anything"
"How the hell do we know that?"

People just won't accept that rules exist to protect people and cannot be written to differentiate between "bad guys" who need strict control, and "good guys" who ought to be allowed to do whatever they like because they wouldn't do anything bad, or so they say.

Or maybe the second amendment evangelists do recognise that one size must fit all, but genuinely think that being able to do whatever one wants must always take precedence over anything, even the safety of children, so that one size must be "freedom for all, even bad guys". It's a worrying thought.

I should add - not all Democrats. Look up the execrable Larry Summers, recently having his arse handed to him on Twitter for bemoaning why so many young Americans are dying compared to other countries (with more sensible gun laws).

@DdraigGoch "They're only a criminal once they actually commit the crime. Most school shootings were committed by people with no criminal history so you need to worry about the 'law-abiding' gun owners as well as the ones known to be criminals."

That's rather the point I was trying to make but obviously not clearly enough. But legal gun owners don't perceive themselves as potential criminals - see Florenz's posts on this thread.

Look, all these comments about how ridiculous and insane American gun laws are may make you feel better but you're not saying anything that those of us who live here and would like to change them don't already know. But they do sweet FA to actually help. The problem is that the genie is out of the bottle. There are at least 393 million guns floating around in the population, in a country which has a tradition of using them (legally) that is far greater than that in most countries, and has a populace that is more viciously polarised than I have ever seen it and has few affordable ways of tackling mental health issues.

The practical political possibilities of bringing about change are few. There are organisations - Everytown and Moms for example - that are working for change but all most of us can do in practice is keep voting for Democrats (as the Republicans know they'll be primaried out to even more extreme candidates if they work for gun reform) at both the state and federal level in the hope that there will eventually be enough force behind the desire for change, especially involving assault-style weapons. But it won't ever be a UK-style ban because the desire just isn't there and the practical need is greater regardless of how friendly you think we should be to our wild animals and reptiles.

We were at a US National Park last summer and there were signs about no open carry in the toilet blocks. Made you realise how ridiculous the US gun policy is that anyone would think of walking into toilets displaying their gun - but there were people - men and women who did!

Open carry is absolutely ridiculous.

Guns is part of the problem but not the whole problem, school attacks will happen no matter what, there are other equally horrible ways to hurt people , and it seems to be a very American problem ,Mexico for example had 8 in the last decade , the US had 300 in 2022 alone,
there should be more investigation for the reasons behind this, what makes young adults <usually former students of the school > go on a rampage and kill small children?
But both sides in the US don’t want to address the issues and are just concentrating on Guns, pro and against ,

They're only a criminal once they actually commit the crime. Most school shootings were committed by people with no criminal history so you need to worry about the 'law-abiding' gun owners as well as the ones known to be criminals.

• 2021 had the greatest number of incidents, with 249. The next highest year was 2019 with 119.

2020 was only marginally lower than 2019 because schools were temporarily shut down so there were fewer opportunities. In 2018 (equal to 2019) the number of incidents was double any previous year on record. 2022 had 303 incidents (more than 5 times the 58 in 2017, which at the time was almost exceptionally high) and if 2023 continues the grisly trend set in the first quarter then that record is likely to be outstripped.

This is a rapidly growing issue. I don't know if each incident inspires more or whatever, but something has changed in the last five years.

I said 'concealed carry' when I should have said 'open carry' No need for a permit or training to carry a gun openly.

@Britinme

I'm not sure why an article posted by 'Campus Security' in Jan 2022 is relevant. You are only focusing on school shootings and the article is somewhat misleading.
There have been 64 school shootings since that was published. That's a lot of data to leave out. It also doesn't examine gun laws in place at the time. For example, how many shootings have there been following the roll back in 2016 of the previous governments gun laws? Did mass shootings increase when the ban on assault rifles expired in 2004
Data alone means nothing so I'm not sure why we need to 'look at some data'

Another example: the highest number of school shootings have taken place in areas with the tightest gun control laws.
Again, misleading. You've said that California, Texas and Florida have the highest up until early 2022? Texas and Florida tightest gun control laws? Abbot removed any requirements to have either a permit or training for concealed carry. So surely we should look at whether the lax laws there have impacted the number of shootings? Here's a clue. Robb Elementary School

Here's another fun fact. The states with the strictest gun laws are often surrounded by those that don't. So no real barrier if someone wants a gun.

Here's an article that may be of interest
https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/strictest-gun-laws-by-state

Seriously though, we could post a million 'stats' but it doesn't change the fact that this isn't a 'crisis' it is just 'normal' for the US. Dead kids are acceptable collateral damage and they are ok with that. Protect the unborn at all costs but who gives a fuck once they're here on earth.

Make theft legal too, that would reduce crime even further.

Make drugs legal. That'll reduce crime considerably.

Forget about the war on drugs, there needs to be a war on crime. All over the world.

By definition anybody who shoots up a school is a criminal. Most of the weapons used in school shootings have been bought legally,including the most recent.

‘Get the guns out of the hands of criminals, and THEN look at restricting gun sales to law-abiding citizens.’

ot all has to happen at the same time. And criminals aren’t the ones shooting up schools. Law-abiding citizens are.

Get the guns out of the hands of criminals, and THEN look at restricting gun sales to law-abiding citizens.

That's all very well, but it remains that assault rifles have no place whatsoever in a civilized society. The people who defend untramelled availability and ownership of these weapons are paranoid, hysterical ideologues who think they'll end up defending their homes and families from (1) black people on the rampage, and (2) the gummint. They'll never admit to (1) but that is what they fear.

Please don't ever think I intend to defend American gun laws. My purpose on this thread is purely to explain and offer factual background, so let's look at some data.

https://www.campussafetymagazine.com/safety/k-12-school-shooting-statistics-everyone-should-know/

This does not include the most recent year, but is accurate as far as I can tell>

The school shooting data below includes stats from 1970 to 2021. Partial 2022 data can be found on the CHDS website.

• Related: 7 Times ‘See Something, Say Something’ Stopped Potential Tragedies in 2021There have been 1,924 school shooting incidents since 1970.
• 2021 had the greatest number of incidents, with 249. The next highest year was 2019 with 119.
• Since 1970, 637 people have died in shootings at schools. Additionally, 1,734 were injured and 73 suffered minor injuries.
• 2018 was the year with the highest number of people killed, including the shooter, with 51 killed. This was the year of the Marjory Stoneman Douglas shooting, which claimed 17 lives.
• California, Texas and Florida are the states with the most incidents.
• 1,086 incidents occurred outside on school property and 672 occurred solely inside a school building.
• The most common location for a school shooting is in a parking lot (21.8%), followed by a classroom (10.3%)
• Most school shootings (18.4%) occurred in the morning, followed by at a sporting event (10.2%) or during afternoon classes (10.1%).
• 685 incidents were the result of an escalated dispute (37.1%).
• 515 victims were females and 1,729 were males.
• The most common time of year for a school shooting is in the fall.

See also this map, which tracks the location of these shootings (and records a slightly higher number since it goes to June 2022):

https://www.nationalworld.com/news/world/how-many-school-shootings-america-since-1970s-after-nashville-mass-attack-3708741

While we all recoil in horror at the deaths of these 684 people (some of them adults), and it must be noted that gun deaths have replaced motor vehicles as the leading cause of death for children, the map and numbers show up a couple of important things that probably influence many Americans in a way that is hard for Brits to take in.

Firstly, the highest number of school shootings have taken place in areas with the tightest gun control laws. Supporters of the second amendment point to this as an indication that increasing gun control will not change the incidence of such events.

Secondly, in practice the deaths of 684 people over a fifty year period, most of them nowhere near where you and your family are living, and out of a 333 million population, doesn't influence many people beyond the immediate shock of the report. On the other hand, the threat of having your legal guns removed from you (which as everybody knows will not affect the criminals who will continue to possess them) will certainly affect the owners of the 393 million legally held guns.

According to Gallup, Thirty-two percent of U.S. adults say they personally own a gun, while a larger percentage, 44%, report living in a gun household. Adults living in gun households include those with a gun in their home or anywhere on their property. https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx

It will never ever change.

There could be a mass shooting in an American school every week and they would still screech it's their right to bear arms.

That right is apparently more important than a child's right to be safe in school.

When I think of those mothers and fathers this week who kissed their kids goodbye that morning and will never hold them again my heart aches.

Thanks. So it really is the USA that has slid from being fairly sensible about guns (refer to Tom Lehrer, The Hunting Song, 1953) to being obsessive about them and losing any sense of proportion.

I'd suggest that since in living memory the NRA was an association which ran courses for teens on responsible gun ownership and use, but has devolved into a frankly unpleasant association advocating universal gun-ownership even for totally untrained people with a record of violence, and which as well as having obvious links to the arms manufacturers has at one time and another been funded to a greater or lesser extent by Russia (there is plenty of evidence of links), it might be worth looking at where the NRA is now getting its money; it was in the process of going bankrupt at least at one point because of the behaviour of the people at the top of it. And now that it is asserted to be one of the Big Boys in buying up people in politics, which is a very expensive pastime, that question seems more pertinent than ever.

Again, what are you and your extended American family doing to bring about change?