To think a 9/10 yo should be able to add 8+7 in their head?

WittiestUsernameEver · 2024-04-04T16:48:51+00:00

Am I missing something? A few kids I've been with around 9-10 (yr 5) have struggled with what I'd consider simple mental arithmetic? So one definitely couldn't do 8+7, another struggled with 5+9, and the third child had a similar question. Am I expecting too much? Is it the way maths is taught these days makes it harder somehow ? Don't they have to do this very much? I'm genuinely surprised.

Noicant · 06/04/2024 22:29

Yes, I taught my 4yr old old to add by playing ludo with her (it wasn’t the reason we were playing but it was a side benefit) so yeah by then I would expect her to be able to recall basic addition. Once she can add the numbers confidently I’m going to chuck in a 3rd dice.

cardibach · 06/04/2024 22:20

WittiestUsernameEver · 06/04/2024 19:54

It's 3 different children, from 3 different walk of life and schools etc. they weren't "put on the spot" or anything like that.

Incredibly unlikely they're all dyscalclic. No signs otherwise etc through all kids.

It's something else. COVID. Is the something else.

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If they were asked it as a mental arithmetic question they were put on the spot. I panic and am even worse than usual.

Original poster

WittiestUsernameEver · 06/04/2024 19:54

cardibach · 05/04/2024 23:12

I’ve got an old style O level B in Maths and did (and passed) the first year of public sector accountancy exams. I can’t do it without running it over my fingers. I have dyscalculia. Maybe the child does.

It's 3 different children, from 3 different walk of life and schools etc. they weren't "put on the spot" or anything like that.

Incredibly unlikely they're all dyscalclic. No signs otherwise etc through all kids.

It's something else. COVID. Is the something else.

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MinervaMcGonagallsCat · 06/04/2024 11:56

Also some kids don't like performing in public or being out on the spot.

MinervaMcGonagallsCat · 06/04/2024 11:55

The average child can.

But that means some cannot. For all sorts of reasons including Dyscalculia

cardibach · 06/04/2024 11:52

It varies in presentation. I can’t remember or manipulate numbers, work out what time it will be in, say an hour and 35 mins, estimate totals or measure things. I understand maths, I can tell you what sum to do, I just can’t do the sum without a calculator. And since I always have one with me on my phone this doesn’t seem like too much of an issue.
Edit: as far as the example sums are concerned, (8+7 and 18+7) it had never occurred to me that there was a concept there to grasp. Two totally different sums.

Kalevala · 05/04/2024 23:23

Some people learn number facts but can't conceptualise them in order to apply the pattern to problems they don't know. So they'll know 8+7 but won't know 18+7 and can't apply the pattern mentally to work it out because 8 and 18 are completely different to them.

Is this dyscalculia? DN can do things like 998+7.

cardibach · 05/04/2024 23:12

I’ve got an old style O level B in Maths and did (and passed) the first year of public sector accountancy exams. I can’t do it without running it over my fingers. I have dyscalculia. Maybe the child does.

Idtotallybangdreamoftheendlessnotgonnalie · 05/04/2024 23:09

Kalevala · 05/04/2024 21:50

Is this not just how most people would do it without being taught? Or 8+7 as double 7 plus one/double 8 minus one?

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Some people do that when they have a grasp of functional maths, either taught or innate.

Some people learn number facts but can't conceptualise them in order to apply the pattern to problems they don't know. So they'll know 8+7 but won't know 18+7 and can't apply the pattern mentally to work it out because 8 and 18 are completely different to them.

Kalevala · 05/04/2024 22:44

Depressedbarbie · 05/04/2024 22:15

Most children need to be taught this explicitly, and will need an awful lot of practise to be able to do it reliably. Some will grasp it quickly and a few may work it out thensleves, as with all learning.

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Oh OK, I didn't know what was taught as I had a 1-1 teaching assistant at that age. I don't remember any maths I was actually taught until year two when we did the formal two and three digit sums. The mental maths I just knew like my DS and DN.

Depressedbarbie · 05/04/2024 22:15

Kalevala · 05/04/2024 21:50

Is this not just how most people would do it without being taught? Or 8+7 as double 7 plus one/double 8 minus one?

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Most children need to be taught this explicitly, and will need an awful lot of practise to be able to do it reliably. Some will grasp it quickly and a few may work it out thensleves, as with all learning.

Kalevala · 05/04/2024 21:50

Idtotallybangdreamoftheendlessnotgonnalie · 05/04/2024 21:27

YR and Y2, both can do that in their head.

Their mental maths seems really quick and confident, the way they've been taught is to get to 10 and add the remainder, so in their heads the sums would turn from 8+7 to 10+5, or 9+5 would become 10+4.

Is this not just how most people would do it without being taught? Or 8+7 as double 7 plus one/double 8 minus one?

Longma · 05/04/2024 21:28

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Idtotallybangdreamoftheendlessnotgonnalie · 05/04/2024 21:27

YR and Y2, both can do that in their head.

Their mental maths seems really quick and confident, the way they've been taught is to get to 10 and add the remainder, so in their heads the sums would turn from 8+7 to 10+5, or 9+5 would become 10+4.

Asprogata · 05/04/2024 21:27

I tend to think this is something children currently and within the last decade/15 years (including covid years) are much better at than previous generations. I think maths teaching is far better.

Maybe you need a bigger cohort to test your theory on?

I do however think (and think this has been studied in the Uk), there’s a gap between the not so bad but not perfect mental arithmetic of my generation (49) and the 35-45 year group below, before it gets better again.

Original poster

WittiestUsernameEver · 05/04/2024 21:18

LetsPlayShadowlands · 05/04/2024 21:12

Maybe we don't shame kids thay can't do this? I always struggled with mental maths. However it was taught didn't compute with me. My brain would simply freeze if asked a simple question. I'd been shamed by teachers for being unable to answer, and dreaded those mental maths tape tests. Only in the past 10 years or so, did something naturally click with me and I can do better maths mentally without panic.

There's no shame put on kids here.

It was an observation of the peers I know, most likely explained by missed education from COVID as it turns out.

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Suddenarabia · 05/04/2024 21:18

Can’t do it or can’t do it quickly? I genuinely have issues doing 8+7 in my head quickly and often count on my fingers. I have a 1st degree and a masters so am certainly not stupid. Peoples brains work in different ways.

Original poster

WittiestUsernameEver · 05/04/2024 21:16

RubberyChicken · 05/04/2024 17:50

I would have thought 85% could do it, but the remaining 20% might struggle

Ha ha

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LetsPlayShadowlands · 05/04/2024 21:12

Maybe we don't shame kids thay can't do this? I always struggled with mental maths. However it was taught didn't compute with me. My brain would simply freeze if asked a simple question. I'd been shamed by teachers for being unable to answer, and dreaded those mental maths tape tests. Only in the past 10 years or so, did something naturally click with me and I can do better maths mentally without panic.

Kalevala · 05/04/2024 18:17

Depressedbarbie · 05/04/2024 17:53

Having taught reception, this is very unusual. Children should be able to add through ten mentally by the end of year 2, and consolidate it in ks2.

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My DN could do those kind of sums at 4 and a bit (before reception), as could my DS at that age. DN can barely hold a pencil and I think my DS has stealth dyslexia (late to get phonics and spelling low-average), so spiky profiles, though.

mrsed1987 · 05/04/2024 18:03

Depressedbarbie · 05/04/2024 17:53

Having taught reception, this is very unusual. Children should be able to add through ten mentally by the end of year 2, and consolidate it in ks2.

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Interesting because his teacher has already said how he hasn't ever seen it before...i thought he was just being nice lol.

he doesn't get his maths from me that's for sure!

StinkyWizzleteets · 05/04/2024 17:54

I’m much older and I can’t . I’m dyscalculic and anything with 8s and 6s flummoxes me. I have workarounds but it’s not using standard arithmetic

Depressedbarbie · 05/04/2024 17:53

mrsed1987 · 04/04/2024 18:19

My 5 year old in reception did those both instantly when I asked him

Having taught reception, this is very unusual. Children should be able to add through ten mentally by the end of year 2, and consolidate it in ks2.

RubberyChicken · 05/04/2024 17:50

I would have thought 85% could do it, but the remaining 20% might struggle

Original poster

WittiestUsernameEver · 05/04/2024 17:25

Rudolftheorange · 05/04/2024 09:20

Keep in mind if the children aren't yours that it could be shyness or nerves rather than lack of mathematic ability.

I don't think this is shyness. These kids are family and close friends etc. We all know each other well. It was just an observation about the age group and makes complete sense that missed education in COVID is the reason, especially as younger kids are very capable.

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