Page 3 | Can school do this? - managed move

Bonnyswannie · 2024-03-22T13:38:20+00:00

My dd is struggling at her very strict academy school. Whilst it works for some it does not for my dd and she has gone from well behaved to being pulled up for things like uniform and forgotten items to now what they call disrespectful behaviour my dd worries about school a lot at home and we applied to a new school that is less strict about u forms and bags and I felt may be a better match. my dd has a lot of negative behaviours points and a 1 day suspension since year 8 - nothing before that. the new school has accepted and it’s all going through yet today my dd’s current school said they would speak to new school as due to her negative behaviours she would need a managed move. I called them this morning for help as dd was up worrying last night and not wanting to come and now we are being told this. i asked for this in writing and they have said the new school could request due to the amount of negative behaviours. Can they do this? my dd is undergoing assessment for ADHD she’s not aggressive or nasty or anything she does forget stuff and she can back chat . Some lessons she excels in and there are 3 subjects she is rarely in as Sw gets sent out for back chat about things that are missing. Not ideal but dd says they talk to her like crap and it makes her feel shit

teenboymom · 24/03/2024 01:23

Really hope your daughter settles into new school. The ignorance on this thread is disgusting and even more so because a lot of it is from teachers.

My DS go to a school just like this. It's very hard to get on the right track as they are pulled up on every little foot stepped out of place. The slate is never wiped clean in the school despite what they say.

SuperSue77 · 23/03/2024 23:52

cansu · 23/03/2024 21:01

If you don't like the uniform go somewhere else. It is utterly ridiculous to select a school and then moan that you don't agree with the rules.

That implies parents get a say in which school their kids go to - a lot don’t. A lot of
kids get allocated schools by the local authority irrespective of the “choice” their parents select on their admission form.

KillerTomato7 · 23/03/2024 23:37

concernedchild · 23/03/2024 07:16

I really don't understand how you can let her act like this? Being suspended in year 8 is so serious.

I never had a detention. If she forgets things in the morning, lay them out the night before. My mum always used to make sure my bag was packed the night before school. By the end of year 7 I was doing it alone and never forgot anything.

How on earth does she forget her shoes????

“I never had a detention.”

Of all the things anyone has ever bragged about on the internet, this might be the most pathetic. And the internet has been around for a while now.

For anyone else who else who views a post by the concerned parent of an ND child as the perfect opportunity to call attention to their own impeccable parenting skills, fuck off.

Or at least redirect your anger at me, since I have just besmirched your delicate virgin eyes with profanity.

NamelessNancy · 23/03/2024 22:27

XelaM · 23/03/2024 19:58

I expect them to make sure their child is wearing their school uniform when they leave rather than buy them air force trainers and refuse to buy school shoes.

Black air force 1s are the most popular school shoes in the school my daughter attends. They are also good for kids' feet. I don't see why some schools forbid them as school shoes? Many many schools allow them to be worn as school shoes. Generally, I'm not going to support school rules that don't make sense.

Absolutely this. The time teachers spend enforcing this absolute bullshit is what is disruptive to the education of all the children.

Zyq · 23/03/2024 22:17

cansu · 23/03/2024 19:04

In mumsnet land there are no rude and badly behaved children. It is simply the fault of too strict schools. In the real world there are plenty of students who argue with teachers, truant internally and make schools miserable for others. They are also supported by their parents who will go to any lengths to make it someone else's issue.

On the contrary. Sadly in Mumsnet land there is a substantial minority of posters, featuring all too many teachers, who think schools can do no wrong, there is no such thing as learning disability, and providing support to disabled students is just pandering to them because really they should be punished for being disabled. Also that schools should just disobey the law whenever it is inconvenient to them.

Zyq · 23/03/2024 22:09

cansu · 23/03/2024 14:06

If there is no managed move why did the school suggest it? Moving a child on in this way is not in the school's interest. If the receiving school think it isn't working they can be sent back. The school is so then vulnerable to being added to take a student in return. It all sounds very strange. It doesn't really add up probably because you are only telling half the story.

Almost certainly because they already have a seriously falling roll and wanted to disguise the fact that another pupil was leaving due to their inadequacies. As you point out, moving the child on is indeed not in their interests so they wanted to discourage and/or disguise it. The relevant guidance says that the original school should be able to show that appropriate initial interventions have been carried out first including, where relevant, multi-agency support or statutory assessments. This school has done none of that. It also has to be voluntary whereas this school seems to have been trying to tell OP that she had no choice.

Your information on managed moves is out of date: they are no longer temporary. You need to get up to speed on that before pronouncing further.

PaperDoIIs · 23/03/2024 22:02

@Bonnyswannie if it helps to ease your mind a bit, I also work in education. I can read and understand what I'm reading though.

Original poster

Bonnyswannie · 23/03/2024 22:00

Zyq · 23/03/2024 21:57

It was indeed a grossly disablist response which I hope MNHQ will delete. There really should be no place for such revolting attitudes here.

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Honestly some of these responses from people saying they work in eduction are very scary

OP posts:

Zyq · 23/03/2024 21:57

Bonnyswannie · 23/03/2024 13:54

My dd had a meltdown at home yes. Because she feels scared.
mum actually in shock at this response mocking a child who is worried and anxious

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It was indeed a grossly disablist response which I hope MNHQ will delete. There really should be no place for such revolting attitudes here.

Zyq · 23/03/2024 21:53

Twiglets1 · 23/03/2024 13:09

It does sound like you are minimising her behaviour. I used to work in a school until last year (not a teacher but in a support role) and schools don't turn to managed moves for any pupils apart from those with the most persistent behaviour issues.

I would try to work with the school to find out what are the main issues and the small issues to try to help your daughter transition to the new school.

Yet again, you do not seem to realise that this school did not "turn to" a managed move to eat with a behavioural issue. They didn't take any steps towards this until they realised OP was about to move her daughter to another school. They also seem to have ignored the fact that they could not impose a managed move without a parent's case, which could lead to Ofsted finding them to be inadequate.

Why should OP try to "work with" this school when her child is moving to one with a much better understanding of ADHD and SEN?

Zyq · 23/03/2024 21:48

wellington77 · 23/03/2024 12:08

As a teacher, a managed move is not done for small reasons, so I’m sorry but your daughter’s behaviour must be worse than you think. If she’s back chatting- imagine the the impact on the teachers who are human at the end of the day but also disrupting other children’s learning. I get complaints for parents about other children’s behaviour disrupting their children’s learning, the school might not tell you about this as some children do t want to be identified, but they will need to consider them too. Managed moves involve a lot of paper work and the new school can return them after a certain number of weeks if they think it’s not working, so it’s not gone into lightly. The way you describe how your daughter says ‘ they speak to her like crap” is that just teachers just trying to hold her behaviour to account. I feel you’re making excuses for her. ADHD or not, she should be going to lessons and you need to be firm with her and support the teachers otherwise she will think she can get away with more and more. I’ve seen it happen. Teachers don’t make up stuff for nothing- neither have the energy or inclination!

You're out of date in terms of your knowledge of managed moves which can no longer be reversed. You also make the mistake of thinking your own experience reflects the practice of schools everywhere. The fact that your school would not have done this lightly does not mean another school with a falling roll - like the one where DD's daughter is - would not suddenly seek to impose it to disguise the fact that yet another family is voting with their feet. Remember the Exclusions guidance emphasises that the first step is to consider special needs, whether more support is needed, and whether an EHC needs assessment is required - and this school has done none of that.

Original poster

Bonnyswannie · 23/03/2024 21:47

Soontobe60 · 23/03/2024 21:44

Why did you let her leave the house without shoes or let her go into school without them?

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I didn’t please read my posts

OP posts:

Soontobe60 · 23/03/2024 21:44

Bonnyswannie · 23/03/2024 21:40

Well you just did 😊

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Why did you let her leave the house without shoes or let her go into school without them?

Zyq · 23/03/2024 21:41

Smeegall · 23/03/2024 10:30

Apologies for grammatical mistake.

i don’t believe a school would do a managed move for the reasons stated.

i feel there has to be more to this story than being stated.

managed move is the step before exclusion from a school. I can’t believe they would go to this length over a rolled up skirt, it’s just not worth the hassle.

there’s just such a feeling of us and them on this thread. The teachers at the school, even if not always on your child’s side want the best for your child - that’s it. No teacher goes into the job for any other reason, no matter how senior they are.

I will say that I’ve been sworn at so much more recently and it’s almost become acceptable to do. Parents don’t seem to care their child has sworn at a teacher. If I’ve been sworn at, and I’m good at behaviour management, and very little consequence happens (after school detention….!) I cannot believe the OPs daughter is having a managed move for some very minor infractions. It doesn’t add up.

we are so quick to label as an undiagnosed SEN and how difficult it is for the child. In the mean time there’s a class of 29 having to wait to learn, possibly with their own needs.

If child is so great and it’s the schools fault, accept the managed move they will pass with flying colours.

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How do you know what the teachers at this school want? This is the school that has failed to take the basic step of requesting an EHC needs assessment for a child who clearly qualifies for it. Those are not teacher who want the best for the child in question.

Why should OP accept a managed move when she can move her child to a school which clearly has a much better understanding of ADHD?

Original poster

Bonnyswannie · 23/03/2024 21:41

PaperDoIIs · 23/03/2024 21:24

@Soontobe60 have you come across a child going home with two dresses on? Or forget to go to the toilet WHILE they're going to the toilet in upper ks2? And plenty of other ridiculous and bonkers scenarios that just happen.

Plus OP explained anyways, her daughter took her shoes off in the car, then forgot and walked off .

Shit happens.

Thank you for saving me having to repeat myself yet again!

OP posts:

Original poster

Bonnyswannie · 23/03/2024 21:40

Well you just did 😊

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And you have taken that out of context but hey that’s not a surprise

OP posts:

Original poster

Bonnyswannie · 23/03/2024 21:40

Soontobe60 · 23/03/2024 21:21

I have yet to come across a child with ADHD who forgot to come to school in their shoes. Especially if their mum also brought them to school.

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Well you just did 😊

OP posts:

Original poster

Bonnyswannie · 23/03/2024 21:38

cansu · 23/03/2024 19:50

What do I expect parents to do? I expect parents not to minimise the impact of poor behaviour and I expect them not to seek to blame school staff when their child is truanting, swearing at staff and disrupting lessons for others.

I expect them not to sit in meeting laughing when their kids are rude. I expect them to keep them at home when they are suspended rather than allow them to hang around the school waiting for their mates to get out. I expect them to show up to parents evenings. I expect them to make sure their child is wearing their school uniform when they leave rather than buy them air force trainers and refuse to buy school shoes. I expect them to be bothered that their child does no homework and has missed shed loads of work through hiding in school toilets with their mates. I expect them to support school sanctiond rather than tell school staff and their kids to walk out of detentions and refuse to hand over their phones.

However generally they only care when their child is on the edge of being excluded. Then they get interested because they face the reality of their child being at home or that their child may have to go to a less convenient school or a school without their mates.

so You have judged my issue with a school trying to say my in year transfer should be on a managed move based on your experiences as a teacher rather than the information I gave because none of anything you have listed is relevant to this case

OP posts:

Original poster

Bonnyswannie · 23/03/2024 21:33

Scattery · 23/03/2024 19:29

So what would you have the OP do, @cansu? Meekly roll over and accept the school's out-and-out lie that her daughter needs a managed move? Not bother to look for underlying issues and simply, what, punish? How? (Are you one of those "bring back the cane!" folks? or are you simply ableist?)

Also, kindly explain how a parent can prevent in-school behaviour. And I mean this with all sincerity - what are your suggestions? If a parent cannot sit in the back of a classroom, or follow her around in a school setting, how the EVERLOVING FUCK are we supposed to prevent bad behaviour?

Punishment at home doesn't fix school problems, as much as you'd love to think so.

I bloody empathise with the OP. My youngest is in y8, totally fine in primary apart from slight attention issues, easily corrected. Fast forward to secondary, she's falling apart and I'm desperately contacting the SENCO for help. SENCO doesn't engage. I've got to do all the footwork through the GP. CAMHS takes her on, agrees high probability of ADHD, meanwhile she's continuing to spiral at school because they don't believe she's got ADHD, so it's detention for forgetting a green pen, and now I've got a child who's starting to get the mindset of "if I'm getting punished for forgetting a specific pen, I might as well go ahead and be REALLY bad" which is something I'm desperately trying to fix through meetings with school, reasonable adjustments, and discipline at home.

I mean, I'm careful about posting on Mumsnet these days because there are a ton of posters who viciously parent blame, but it feels like it's next-level at this point, like a proportion of you don't actually want our kids to exist in society anymore. As if some of you prefer to see a kid suffer rather than wonder how we might change the system for the better.

And actually having posted those last two sentences I do think that's what it boils down to - intolerance and hatred. Coupled with a heaping spoonful of "fear/hate the Other."

OP, you're not alone out there and I'm wishing you the best.

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Thank you so much and I hope things get better for you guys too. My dd has also started saying that if she’s doing 1.5 hour detentions she may as well actually misbehave - it’s hard because half the time I’m not even told what she’s done or the context of it. Sometimes she doesn’t even know

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PaperDoIIs · 23/03/2024 21:24

@Soontobe60 have you come across a child going home with two dresses on? Or forget to go to the toilet WHILE they're going to the toilet in upper ks2? And plenty of other ridiculous and bonkers scenarios that just happen.

Plus OP explained anyways, her daughter took her shoes off in the car, then forgot and walked off .

Shit happens.

Soontobe60 · 23/03/2024 21:21

BibbleandSqwauk · 23/03/2024 07:21

@concernedchild do you have ADHD?

I have yet to come across a child with ADHD who forgot to come to school in their shoes. Especially if their mum also brought them to school.

Scattery · 23/03/2024 21:17

cansu · 23/03/2024 19:50

What do I expect parents to do? I expect parents not to minimise the impact of poor behaviour and I expect them not to seek to blame school staff when their child is truanting, swearing at staff and disrupting lessons for others.

I expect them not to sit in meeting laughing when their kids are rude. I expect them to keep them at home when they are suspended rather than allow them to hang around the school waiting for their mates to get out. I expect them to show up to parents evenings. I expect them to make sure their child is wearing their school uniform when they leave rather than buy them air force trainers and refuse to buy school shoes. I expect them to be bothered that their child does no homework and has missed shed loads of work through hiding in school toilets with their mates. I expect them to support school sanctiond rather than tell school staff and their kids to walk out of detentions and refuse to hand over their phones.

However generally they only care when their child is on the edge of being excluded. Then they get interested because they face the reality of their child being at home or that their child may have to go to a less convenient school or a school without their mates.

I appreciate your response. I honestly doubt that type of parent bothers to post on Mumsnet, though, and I have actually only encountered one of those uncaring/incredibly irresponsible parents ever, despite being in an incredibly diverse area. I really feel that the vast majority of us are trying to get to grips with a school system that is creaking along on the edge of breakdown. I really cannot tell you how demoralising it is to see constant messages along the lines of "it starts at home" and "it's the parents!" when my kid is struggling in a shitty, underfunded system that values neither teacher nor student.

And yet I rarely see people scrutinising MATs or OFSTED's ridiculous attendance targets, or chronic underfunding, or the teacher shortage (apart from blaming pupils again). I really am just so dog-tired of the "blame the individual" game because it's detracting from fixing the system. IMO, the same folks who keep pointing fingers tend to have authoritarian leanings and something about punishment and the continuous call for discipline appeals to them. But that's getting pretty deep for Mumsnet I guess.

cansu · 23/03/2024 21:01

If you don't like the uniform go somewhere else. It is utterly ridiculous to select a school and then moan that you don't agree with the rules.

cansu · 23/03/2024 20:59

A poster asked what I expected parents to do. I have answered her.

PaperDoIIs · 23/03/2024 20:41

cansu · 23/03/2024 19:50

What do I expect parents to do? I expect parents not to minimise the impact of poor behaviour and I expect them not to seek to blame school staff when their child is truanting, swearing at staff and disrupting lessons for others.

I expect them not to sit in meeting laughing when their kids are rude. I expect them to keep them at home when they are suspended rather than allow them to hang around the school waiting for their mates to get out. I expect them to show up to parents evenings. I expect them to make sure their child is wearing their school uniform when they leave rather than buy them air force trainers and refuse to buy school shoes. I expect them to be bothered that their child does no homework and has missed shed loads of work through hiding in school toilets with their mates. I expect them to support school sanctiond rather than tell school staff and their kids to walk out of detentions and refuse to hand over their phones.

However generally they only care when their child is on the edge of being excluded. Then they get interested because they face the reality of their child being at home or that their child may have to go to a less convenient school or a school without their mates.

None of that is relevant to this thread though if you want to have a thread to moan about the state of behaviour and attitudes in schools, and the parents' part in it , feel free to do so. I'll support and applaud you and share some of my own frustrations. It has nothing to do with a school interfering with an in year transfer though. It's also not fair to take your frustrations out on OP (and her daughter ). Even if she is THAT kid and OP is THAT parent, they have not interacted with you or made YOUR life harder.