To be in this job and feel poor?

Definitely not suggesting we withdraw NHS care from the elderly! But NHS funding has to be part of the conversation. What do we want the state to continue to pay for and what is the most fair way of doing this?
More focus on contribution to society vs what you take out too. Not only monetary but recognising the value of roles in society; is everyone doing their bit or are some people running away with silver and running out on their bill.

Xenia · Today 13:52

I would rather we just withdrew a lot of health care from old people, abolished the NHS etc before we started stealing assets.

Xenia, we are already well aware that you would far prefer to see people die due to lack of health care and medical attention rather than you part with any of your substantial financial assets or your holidays in the Caribbean.

Am I reading this correctly? You want to abolish the NHS? In the US, going bankrupt and losing your home during to medical debt are very real.

If people's savings or value of their car, handbag, equity in the house or pension were included ("wealth" mentioned above) were subject to even more tax than they are now that would be a big change from what we currently have and make people do more what I have - I paid university costs and fees for my children and help with a first house which is why I have very few savings nor any private pension at my age (and less "wealth" to tax). My council tax and also stamp duty are alread high property taxes and when I die the state takes about 40% of my house value away in IHT. All the equity in my house has already been taxed at 40% (due to my house) so I think it might be a bit unfair to start taking chunks of people's private sector pensions or houses away in an asset or penalising savers tax. I would rather we just withdrew a lot of health care from old people, abolished the NHS etc before we started stealing assets.

It’s not great but more than a lot of people have left at the end of the month!

Although things have got worse recently, this isn’t as new as people seem to think. I can remember all the fuss years ago about middle class JAMs (just about managing).

hopefully interest rates will come down soon and that will help reduce costs for people.

I did a similar exercise last night for April Budgeting. Sole earner, similar base salary to Op but with a bonus that tops up. Not a ‘colossal’ salary and not feeling the benefits of years of study, plus ongoing study and development.

I don’t know what the answer is - obviously people on lower salaries really struggling but the tax burden is starting to pinch with inflation and fiscal drag.

We need to have a conversation as a country about expectations for living standards. It’s going to get worse as the working age population declines and costs of medical and social care for an ageing population increase. I’d like wealth to be put on the table as option for taxation as increasingly the focus on income feels unfair

Updated based on what she's said, I think this is about as good as you could do it? Assuming this £600pcm post grad loan is not something she could avoid.

This assumes no pension savings which of course you'd have to do at some point.

I mean you could nitpick about a cheaper phone or food shopping but it won't move the needle much.

It's liveable but not amazing? Probably not as good as people think it is.

OP doesn’t have kids though unless I’ve missed it? And whilst I wouldn’t describe their salary colossal, their issue is more her huge loans and poor budgeting skills (evidenced by the fact she’s spending over £200 per month on fuel).

The problem with this whole conversation is whether £58k is "colossal" depends very much where in the country you live, what your life stage is, how much your mortgage payments are.

In the South East it's liveable with a bit of money left over but by no means a lavish lifestyle. As a single earner with kids in a 3 bed house you might even find it's very hard to live on that. A 3 bed house where I live is minimum £350,000 and I rent a 3 bed house (nothing special, 1 hour out of London) for £1,500 a month.

In the North East where it's possible to buy a 3 bed semi for around £150,000 or rent one for £500 a month it is indeed colossal, and likely very difficult to obtain.

@StreathamLocal2023 OP you sound like you could be an architect from what you’ve said (7 years, low salary etc).

Sorry, low salary?

Did you miss the part where she said her salary is a colossal 58k?

OP you sound like you could be an architect from what you’ve said (7 years, low salary etc). If so, I completely understand where you are coming from. It’s a tough job that most people think is well paid but actually isn’t and often involves overtime (I’m talking 9pm-4am finishes) and weekend work with very little pay. I left the industry a while ago but still work in property and feel so much happier and less stressed! If I’m correct, please have a look to see how your skills can transfer (because they definitely can) and give it a try!

"But OP isn't saying she ispoor. She's saying she feels poor."

@Pigtailsandall

For the avoidance of doubt. This is still silly.

All those nice things will be wrapped up in OPs spending without her realising.

Finance on a brand new car is a nice thing, I would forgo other nice things, like cocktails, for that nice thing.

There is no way that she can be so hand to mouth on that wage (even with the stupid mortgage and student loans) without a fundamental flaw in her budgeting.

But OP isn't saying she is poor. She's saying she feels poor. There's a distinct difference. I don't think she, or anyone else, is claiming that she lives on the poverty line, and yes, you could cut back if you wanted to and get a crappier car or take in a lodger, but the whole point of it is that she shouldn't have to do any of those things at that wage. And I don't mean £90 a month phone contracts or whatever, but just a comfortable life where you can pop out and buy a few nice things from Pret at your lunch break rather than eating a stale homemade cheese sandwich; or having a cocktail or two with a friend on a Thursday night - very reasonable things when you have worked hard and earn decently. I trained for 6 years, then worked 2, on very low pay, very long hours, and the last thing I wanted to eat was a tuna sandwich that had been festering in my bag for 8 hours while I waited for an opportunity to eat it. You'd think that after 6 years of intense training and studying and loans you'd be able to just spend a few quid extra a day on a sandwich and not share a mouldy house with the lounge converted to a bedroom with 6 other people. I kinda accepted that as paying my dues, being young etc etc. But you do expect your living standards to improve. Then I did a PhD and have spent ten years in my current work and tbh, my salary is not too dissimilar to OP's. And it really doesn't feel much, particularly with a young child and living in London.

She apparently has a professional qualification loan or similar for a brutal £600 a month and the mortgage it turns out is now £1,500 and not £1,300.

I would wager OP isn't coming back

Hopefully because she's sat down, looked at all of her outgoings in detail, and identified that she is just severely mismanaging her money.

And probably feels a bit silly at saying "aren't I poor"

No, you’re not being unreasonable. You worked hard, money doesn’t go as far as it used to. I did a budget for you and it’s not looking terrible, however if you had kids and had to include nursery fees… well you couldn’t really do it and that’s a bit rubbish.

I’ve realised I’ve missed council tax off the budget, so that makes it even tighter. Obviously there might be outgoings that cost more, eg. Car finance, fuel, phone bill, energy bill. I’ve done it based off my own outgoings, however I have a child and another on the way so our food/home shop is a bit more. Perhaps you pay a bit more into your pension so your take home salary might be a bit less. Car insurance has gone up, although if you’re savvy and shop around you can mitigate the extra costs. If you have pets, you will have food bills and pet insurance to add on.

If you want more you could look at increasing your revenue streams, eg. Side hustle, investing, etc, or ask for a pay rise?

Can be similar with law too - 4 or 5 years of full time study (no salary) , then some people even do after that 3 years as a minimum wage paralegal and only then get a training contract which can outside London pay £30k a year. Some of these professions are not as high paid as people think.

I think you are having an argument with me that I am not having with you!

my point was very simply that people do go to university or study for long periods of time or have long periods of training on the expectation of high wages. That all.

I wasn’t defending doctors starting salaries - merely defending OP who thinks after a long period of studying she should have a better standard of living.

carry on arguing - but not with me please 😊

but that can take another 7 years/much longer particularly for women if they go on maternity leave - which given by the time they graduate most doctors are already nearing their mid twenties is going to happen.

'Temporary' indicates a short period of time, not a decade or more!

Expecting people to spend more than a decade working every hour under the sun, on a comparatively low wage, with huge deductions (its not just student loan but registration fees, exam costs, union dues, etc.) for a promise of a fairly (albeit compared to other countries still meagre) salary IF they don't burn out in the meantime isn't a great sell, and no wonder people think fuck this and exit to the private sector/other countries as soon as they can.

yes they always seem to pick the least sympathetic people who are clearly just shit with money which doesn't really support the point they are trying to make. All of those four had large amounts of credit card debt which in most cases had been building up for years, i.e. well before the COL.

I have a lot of sympathy for people on low wages who end up going into the red paying their essential bills each month, and then it only taking one big thing (car/boiler breakdown etc) to screw them over and struggle to get back to zero. But pretty much all those people were on very good wages but still living beyond their means spending money on crap. You don't get to £30,000 of debt by defaulting once on your electric bill on an £73k salary. It is, however, remarkably easy to build up if you see spending £540 a month on your dog, another £750 on your car, and £90 on a phone every single month, as essentials, ffs!

Also YES to your final sentence. It's always rolled out on here that children should be taught better financial skills in schools, and yes there are a lot of things that could be useful. But unless you're a complete idiot you shouldn't need to be 'taught' the most basic rule of finances and easiest way to avoid debt is that if you can't afford something (that isn't an absolute essential (like a new boiler in winter, car if you need to get to work) then don't buy it!

But that is temporary. The whole point of my argument😊. Salaried GPs can earn over £100k. Consultants about £140k. That’s the point!

as the recent strikes show, a junior doctor actually earns LESS than a cashier at aldi. Can't blame people for thinking what the point is.

@Bjorkdidit

"It seems to a lot of people that their definition of 'poor' is 'not being able to continue spending on whatever the hell I like whenever I want to'."

NAILED IT

So you're buying a property and you run a car. You're in a professional job too.

Sounds pretty good tbh.

I see what you mean but there is a difference between people being capable of doing a job and being willing to do a job for the pay offered. Highly skilled jobs and those requiring specialist training and experience quite rightly pay more