Spending downsizing cash

Care homes are incredibly expensive, especially in the south east. She can't be moved to anywhere cheaper as she's far too frail for that. And it's caused ructions about who can and should be footing the bill.

What happens if no one pays the shortfall?

You're not unreasonable for being worried. My grandma has passed her 100th birthday, and is completely out of cash. Nobody anticipated her living as long as she has so nobody realised it would come to this, but now the council covers most of her living expenses and the family has to cover the rest. It's still over £1K a month, which is a lot of money. Care homes are incredibly expensive, especially in the south east. She can't be moved to anywhere cheaper as she's far too frail for that. And it's caused ructions about who can and should be footing the bill.

It's going to be a massive problem in the future, but your mum could still have years left, and yes, you might end up with the bill for that.

By spending money on the flat she has probably increased its value and also probably increased the chance she can stay in her flat and not in a home for longer. She will not be able to travel for much longer so one expensive holiday will give her memories that help keep her happy and not so depressed she fades away.

If she wants to continue spending all her money then you are right to be concerned as it certainly does make finding good help or a good care home easier. But a single holiday and some prudent spending on enhancing her property so it's (hopefully) easy to care for doesnt sound excessive.

I think the figures for needing help are about half once you get past 80 but some of those are living in their own homes, maybe with a gardener and meals delivered.

Yes that's one way to look at it. If her health has a downward spiral (I hope she stays fit as a fiddle) then she's done you a favour by making the flat more desirable to sellers by making the interior upgrades.

Equity release is not deprivation of assets😁
It would be releasing HER money which is tied up in the house, she wouldn't be trying to give the house to relatives or anything. I'm so glad my mum did equity release on her bungalow and really enjoyed the last few years of her life. She wasn't into holidays particularly, but absolutely hated cooking and that extra money enabled her to eat out every day.

The council also often pay their staff more than minimum wage, unlike Bupa etc., which results in a higher standard of carer.

I viewed 11 care and nursing homes for my DM, and the Bupa one I viewed was in my bottom 4, it absolute stank of urine. I did give feedback when I got a follow up call to see if I was interested in the home.
I ended up picking a home that was the fifth most expensive in my list (£1600 per week) and that had the highest staff to residents ratio.

That’s a presumptuous statement. Maybe her mother’s priority is the here and now rather than what ‘may’ happen in the future. And that’s her decision.

I’m a nurse and have worked in both ‘good/private/expensive’ care facilities and ‘bad/council/cheap’ care facilities - the fact is they are all about as bad as each other unless you are extremely wealthy. Those expensive self-funded care homes are run by profiteering organisations that are often more penny pinching than councils. The council also often pay their staff more than minimum wage, unlike Bupa etc., which results in a higher standard of carer.

Deprivation of assets is INCREDIBLY hard for Local Authorities to prove unless it is particularly blatant.

For example, what you can't do is give away huge chunks of property or money with no reason, for example signing the deeds to you house over to your children, even if you do this years before (7 year rule is for IHT, not care), if it cannot be justified for another purpose it can be counted as deliberate deprivation.

If however you, as the OPs mum has done, buy a property and spend thousands doing it up, and go travelling, that is of course fine - it would only be counted as deprivation if you did that knowing you imminently needed care - most healthy, fit 87 year olds only have a 1 in 4 chance of needing care, so can't reasonably know they will need it.

Most local authorities fund care in the self same care homes that paying patients use, so as a pp said, there is often no benefit to being able to pay.

As a relative you have no obligation to pay, you also don't have to use your home as payment if your spouse is still living, a relative who counts as a mandatory disregard (over 65 or disabled), some LAs also add a relative who has been a long term carer to this list. If any of those apply the home cannot be taken into account and will never form part of the funding.

My advice to your mum is to enjoy her home and travels whilst she can.

They think your mum is right because they expect you to pick up the pieces when it all goes tits up.

I do think you should be clear to your mum that if she depletes all her savings then she can't expect to move in with you or you provide daily care. At least then she has the facts.

To move house and decorate? To go one one holiday? Hardly ‘unusual’

Good on her for living her best life 🤩 I hope I’m still going on holidays and renovating when I’m 87.

Assuming she is of sound mind it’s really up to her what she does with her money. Renovations and a nice holiday don’t sound like reckless spending to me.

Additionally - you said the majority has gone into home improvements, which hopefully is increasing the value of her property, and therefore she’s investing rather than frittering her cash away.

@Iwasafool I'm nearly your age and holiday 4 times a year. This is your active living period - enjoy it 😄

*There are maybe 1% of people who live long and can be left living alone.

99% of the elderly needs care- maybe not 24/7 and not by professionals, but they do*

I'd like to know where you got those figures from because they sound made up

My 3 closest friends still have both parents, all in their mid/late 80s, living in their own homes, no help, no carers

My Mum is in her late 70s. Her closest friends are at least her age, all still live in their own homes, no carers or help. She goes to a keep fit class once a week and is almost the youngest there. The other ladies like her turn up in their cars, go for coffee afterwards & return to their own homes

By your statistics most of them should be in care or receiving assistance. Whereas the people I'm referring to who are 78+ are all living unassisted in their own homes. Possibly they're all very fortunate but your 99% statement seems VERY unlikely.

Your DM can also gift money per year to her children & charities too

So at what age are we no longer allowed to go on holiday? I'm 70 and wondering if I'm already in danger of being accused of deprivation of assets. I also had my bathroom re done two years ago, it needed doing and had needed doing for some years. Am I not allowed a nice bathroom? How usual is doing up a bathroom? I've been in this house nearly 30 years and this is the first time I've done it so I suppose that is unusual. Maybe I should have been having anew bathroom every year to show it is usual spending?

We often used to tell my DM (widowed in her 70s) to spend her money and enjoy herself. But although she had what she wanted, her ‘wants’ became fewer and more modest (not that they’d ever been extravagant) - she had no desire to ‘splash the cash’. She often said, ‘I’m only saving it for you lot.’ The relatively few clothes she bought were ‘good’, though, and she’d invariably want to pay* her way on holiday.

*she was once too willing in that respect though - she joined us on a relatively expensive family holiday which we paid for - breakfast and evening meals thrown in.

DM paid for some lunches and drinks, and when we were leaving, she was a bit askance at the size of the bill for these, but was about to pay it anyway.

Just as well I was on the spot to check - the hotel was charging her for the entire cost of the holiday!

A genuine mistake, but just as well I still had the paperwork to show that it had already been paid.

@blossomtoes for everyday living it is not but for holidays etc or "unusual spending" it is considered as such.

No it isn’t.

That is considered as deprivation of assets.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/. There are some rules with unusual spending of money.

Good on her. I hope I'm still independent and loving life at 87.

Another one who thinks spend on making the flat nice and a few nice holidays. She can equity release if she needs more living expenses long term. Put bluntly she might not live much longer.

That's fine as long she has enough money elsewhere to cover her care fees. or will never have to go into a home. Tax payers should not have to pick up the cost of care for the elderly who have ring fenced assets which would otherwise have been used to pay for their care?