Thinking that this should be illegal?

@TempestTost they probably only check the wounds of sectioned women.
My youngest is 7, they no longer do routine 6 week checks unless you have an issue. Very deep 2nd degree tear and nobody looked at it after I was stitched up.

Yes, this is an element it would be tricky, though not impossible, to legislate around. Generally we don't insist that people access medical care. Though there are a few instances related to communicable diseases or public health.

This kind of thing is plausible to people because they have such little trust when the doctors tell them something is risky. And that's partly down to the medical community. The risks of scar rupture, for example, are often very over-blown, especially in the US, where almost anything seems to be reason for a c-section.

And of course c-sections have their own risks which are often minimized by doctors.Once people lose trust in the recommendations of doctors it's very difficult to have any good relation with them.

And frankly maternity care can be extremely coercive. With my third child the hospital wanted to me to have an IV in place the whole time as I'd been sectioned previously, I said I didn't want it, and signed a paper well ahead saying I understood the implications. Mainly I didn't want it because I knew it would tend to make me less mobile. Anyway, when I finally got there, well into labuor, the CoO said he didn't care, I would have one or he'd send me to the city an hour away in an ambulance. Trying to argue my position while in labour seemed hopeless, and I just told them to section me. (Which I regretted later but I was not thinking as clearly as I might have been. My poor husband wasn't sure what to do.) When I was in the waiting room a few weeks later to have my incision checked, every mother in the room had been sectioned!

One of the reasons I wanted a home birth for my second is that I essentially free-birthed my first, not at all through choice and in a hospital. I was sent home because they didn't believe I was in active labour. When I came back in I was told off for coming back and left in the corner of the triage room for a couple of hours even though I kept saying I was pushing. No monitoring, no checks - until, finally, after begging, a midwife begrudgingly checked and said I was near crowning. I was transferred into a labour room and he was born less than 30 minutes later. This was a pregnancy that I had been told was too high risk for me to have the choice of using the midwife unit - but in practice it was totally unattended, no fetal heart monitoring, no checks. We had gone into hospital while I was actively pushing (and while the midwives kept telling me not to come in), which was an awful, agonising journey. I nearly gave birth in a public ward, which was absolutely humiliating. My second birth did end up being in a hospital and was totally different and much better, but the 'care' I got in my first absolutely convinced me at the time that I'd be better off at home.

Laboured at home until the very last hour - was so close to being a 'free birth' due to no midwives being available at the local maternity unit.

They knew I was in labour 1st time mum, had rung up 2 or 3 times during the night and no-one told us until it was too late to do anything (snowed in and 20 miles away to next big hospital as we are rural). The 2 midwives on duty had had to go (one a transfer with a stuck baby, and one broke her arm on icy pavement). The big hospital sent no back up, which I am still horrified about to this day.

I didn't think anything of it at the time but GP was horrified as I had not had fetal heart monitoring or anything. Luckily all OK (DS has complex SEND but more likely to be genetic than birth related, no meconium etc when I finally did reach a midwife and waters broke I was all ready to push!).

I was quite proud of myself on the whole but not what I would have chosen.

My stepdaughter in law freebirthed with their 2nd baby last year. I was incredibly impressed they managed so well. I myself had a home birth with 2 midwives present and that was hard enough

What difference would it have made if the baby was born in hospital?

If the baby was poorly it would probably have been poorly regardless of how it was delivered.

There were problems during labour when one of my DC was born. Problems that were fortunately identified early enough and quickly acted on, and happily DC was fine in the end.

If I’d been in labour at home, then the delay caused by the (at least) 30 minute journey to hospital could well have meant all the difference between a healthy baby and a baby very sick or dead because of oxygen starvation.

Just taken time to actually read the article properly rather than skimming through;
"In fact, if you give birth in the UK today, it’s likely that you will encounter some variation of the message that unmedicated birth is the ideal form of childbirth and that interventions are to be avoided at all costs."

Apparently I'm incredibly naïve. Much more than I anticipated.

I thought this sort of narrative had been pushed out of the mainstream, I thought there wasn't supposed to be an "ideal birth", that birth is different for every woman and "ideal" depends entirely on preferences and (hopefully) lack of complications...

Being at the start of 2nd trimester with my first, this way of thinking in a main stream media outlet is... Scary.
So if I cannot give birth vaginally with 0 pain relief I'm not giving birth in an "ideal" way????
What if my body literally isn't capable of that??? As an example, I'm very petite at 4ft 11 and my DP is an extremely tall and ethnically Dutch bloke though born and raised in UK... How's that going to work?

I'm also seeing a lot of MN posts lately about being judged by medical professionals for not being able to "just get on" with BFing as if it's something you can "just do" with no issues.
The amount of judgement clearly still around is... Worrying to say the least.

You do know OP that autonomy is the first pillar of medical ethics?

The real question has to be why are women being put off from having babies with medical assistance?
Do they understand the risk of things going wrong?

The many NHS horror stories?
Multiple MWs, lack of MNs,
The woman in the next beds husband being their 24/7. When women are feeling incredibly vulnerable?
Being expected to look after a tiny newborn alone - while your still recovering from major surgery or other painful injuries and wounds?

No other hospital ward would expect a patient to care for another patient. And not every mum has a partner who is able to stay 24hrs. (Work, other children, single mums etc)

Hospital wards need to have more Care Assistants, not necessarily fully qualified nurses or midwifes, just people who are able to help settle babies, change, nappies, let mums rest and sleep. Able to lift babies over to mum to help with getting BFing established.

this freebirthing seems to be so close to that situation as to be difficult to differentiate.

Giving birth is something a woman does. It's her choice how she does it. Same as it's not illegal to drink and smoke in pregnancy and it would be illegal to give cigarettes and alcohol to your baby.

If you can't even factor in women in childbirth, you probably shouldn't say you've considered it in depth.

Look at the US. This shit leads to women being given the death penalty for miscarrying if you don't defend women's rights at every turn.

What difference would it have made if the baby was born in hospital?

If the baby was poorly it would probably have been poorly regardless of how it was delivered.

Making it illegal will end up meaning many women will have criminal investigations when really they were caught short in time.

It happens a lot more than yoj think.

You haven't done a great deal of thinking about it, have you? When policy makers think about these things they shouldn't just say THING BAD ILLEGAL. But they should think about the public good, freedom and rights, the consequences of doing nothing versus doing something, the ultimate outcomes, the prevalence, the alternatives.

If you are going to take away women's bodily autonomy, you'd better make sure there is a shit fuck ton on the other side of the scale. There isn't in this case.

My traumatic first birth involved being left alone in hospital for hours at a time waiting for a midwife to be assigned (not once but twice as they were that short staffed). I had 8 midwives during my labour, some for less than an hour.

My (private) home birth I had 2 midwives I knew and trusted with me throughout.

Personally I wouldn’t free birth but I am fortunate to be able to afford private care. I wouldn’t have had another child if I had to go through a hospital birth like my first again.

Wouldn’t it make more sense to fix the NHS rather than criminalise women for opting out of a dehumanising and unsafe medical environment?

Of course but the point is not to enforce it but to disuade anyone from excluding professional help. To me it constitues non-assistance to a person in danger which is an offence.

Homebirths are the cheapest option yes

however with a home birth you don’t share your midwife the second she’s sent to you, she’s yours. She’s not leaving to check another women hers eyes are on you. The second you hit 7cm the second midwife comes again she doesn’t leave all
eyes are on you or not if that feels off putting but you get 1-1 then 2-1 care they do not leave.

Homebirths pick up problems much much faster than hospital births because of the 1-1 care. They can watch the change in your body though transition that a midwife who’s just coming in and out won’t spot or see.

Now I’m not recommending a homebirth for a first time mum with no birth history behind her, but yes it’s cheaper but you also get better care.

I have no input on women's choices tbh, but I will say I'm just into my second trimester and I've had a notification from Badger Notes App I was told to sign up to today telling me to ask my midwife about "home birthing".
I'd really rather not, it's just not for me I don't think, but the timing of that and now this thread makes me raise an eyebrow - Is home births something being encouraged/pushed to lessen the burden on the NHS I wonder????

I'm sorry you went through that.

My point though, was that even if something like that had happened to me, at least at home I had a midwife with me, and I would have got immediate help.

Had it happened in the hospital, where I had been left alone for two hours, I might not have been able to go crawling to get the attention of a midwife - which is what I had to do at the point I wanted to push. Had I not done that, I could well have ended up 'freebirthing' in hospital.

I think the most important thing is to have someone that knows what they are doing there with you. I didn't have that in hospital for a significant length of time.

No, it's not. Margarine (which is defined as having a fat content of over 80%) hasn't been on sale in the UK for a long time.

The items on sale that are similar are technically 'spreads', although some shops still do list them under margarine online. Presumably because a lot of people don't know the difference.

My friend’s newborn ended up in PICU for weeks because she opted for free birthing. It shouldn’t be legal.

Good to see that lots of posters are looking at the bigger picture in terms of why people are making these decisions. Going into hospital isn't a neutral decision and increases the likelihood of a range of medical interventions many of which may have negative impacts on the baby or mother. Birth trauma is a significant societal issue which often is not considered when discussing this topic and why women choose to freebirth. I also think that if you make freebirth illegal then homebirth wouldn't be far behind as the medical assistance available is more limited. I read up extensively on the risks and stats for both my births and chose a hospital birth for my first labour and home birth for my second. No doubt many people think i was selfish for the homebirth but I thought about it very carefully. Labour is risky and we know that maternity services are over stretched and there are unfortunately too many baby and maternal deaths occuring in hospital. Women should have free access to information so they can make their own informed decisions. And much more funding for maternity services.

Yes one midwife who stays with you baring her own emergencies or whatever is what’s needed and wanted.

That’s one of the reasons I loved my homebirth planned pregnancies. I saw the same midwife every check up, I knew when she was going on holiday as she would let me know, she would text if doing a delivery to rearrange my appointment. Hell she engaged my toddler/s in my at home appointments getting them to measure my bump and all exited. She used the digital dopler but also had the old fashion ear on a tube one and she explained everything every step.

Not like the random at the doctors midwifes who didn’t even know your name till the appointment.

Bring back 121 midwives that was a wonderful service I felt so supported I had a wonderful homebirth with a midwife I had seen the entire way through my pregnancy.

My first was a midwife led unit all was textbook so I felt confident going for a homebirth.

My third was a unintentional freebirth because the services were just not there I never saw the same midwife twice they lost me through the system a few times at one point thought I was consultant led 🤷🏼‍♀️ heavily pressurising me to have a c section and not believing I labour quickly. It was really strange. In the end I laboured quickly at home without anyone but my husband. I planned to have midwives there but they didn't arrive in time one got lost with the gas and air. They didn't believe I was in progressive labour as I could talk. It was a real shambles and I'd be scared to have another pregnancy even though I have textbook births. There was a very heavy feeling that everyone around me felt births need to be very medical.

I think these freebirthing women need more support and understanding why they are choosing that. I don't think any of them are choosing to put themselves or their babies at risk as the goal. I think they are scared and feel unsupported so don't feel they have other options.