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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Any teachers out there ?

68 replies

eatdrinkandbemerry · 29/01/2024 17:35

Can I refuse a scribe for my child?
He's got sen but a scribe isn't in any iep or support plan but they used one for a reading test today.
Surely they should have consulted with me before so I could decline to get a clearer understanding of where my child is compared to others his age!
I'm evidence gathering for an EHCP assessment application so I would like true abilities noted not falsified ones.

OP posts:
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eatdrinkandbemerry · 30/01/2024 06:49

Apologies that was an unkind response my frustration overtook my thanks for the useful advice.
It's sometimes difficult when it's your own child you see struggling.
Thanks again for all the insight into why a scribe would be used.
He was actually buzzing that he finished the full test and said he's going to definitely be top on the test leaderboard 🤣.
He is just your average 9 year old whos quite competitive and gets frustrated that he needs help when others don't.
Whatever happens he adores his school and speaks highly of all the staff.
It's just one issue but I'm sure we will get through it x

OP posts:
Soontobe60 · 30/01/2024 06:38

HollyGolightly4 · 30/01/2024 06:32

As a current senco, secondary teacher and exam marker scribes are not as common as laptop usage at GCSE. Typing to prepare for high school with this seems sensible. A laptop will give the child more independence!

Clearly there’s a difference between primary and secondary practice. I agree that is some cases using a tablet / laptop will be beneficial, but not in every case.

HollyGolightly4 · 30/01/2024 06:32

Soontobe60 · 29/01/2024 21:33

As a SENCo, primary teacher and exam marker for many years, believe me, scribes are very very common in exams. In a reading test, spelling and punctuation doesn’t matter, either via a scribe or a student. A grammar test is very easy to administer with a scribe. A child who has physical difficulties in writing, there is a strong likelihood that they may also have similar challenges in using a laptop. Yes, they are effective in specific situations. A child in Year 5 will not be expected to write essays though.

As a current senco, secondary teacher and exam marker scribes are not as common as laptop usage at GCSE. Typing to prepare for high school with this seems sensible. A laptop will give the child more independence!

MenorcaMarguerite · 29/01/2024 21:36

JaffavsCookie · 29/01/2024 21:16

Thats a really unkind response OP, the pp was talking about helping your kid, and others.
You are misinterpreting what they said, if he performs well with the scribe then it is an extra lever to show that he needs support, not that he can be kept in pain the rest of the time.

Agree. Really unkind.

I have had many children in my classes that I have managed to get support, on to EHCP pathways, etc. But more often than not, the best evidence has been to use support (e.g. a scribe) in a test and compare the results without that support. A wide gap shows that some kind of support is necessary. It doesn't mean that the test is the be all and end all, but tests are good to use as evidence because they are so easily measurable and comparable.

One of my own children had real issues with handwriting. I would caution believing the laptop is the answer to everything. It certainly has its place and she typed most exams from Year 6 up. But she also studied subjects like Maths and French which she found impossible to type. And she is now learning Arabic which is interesting to watch!!

I would suggest that the laptop is one support but that you also pursue ways that your son can write in some way with the least pain possible.

Soontobe60 · 29/01/2024 21:33

HollyGolightly4 · 29/01/2024 18:28

This is absolutely not true! Scribes are much rarer than laptop usage. Also, unless the child dictates every punctuation mark and letter by letter, spag must be disallowed. OP is quite right to expect school to be providing a laptop. They're effective when people can be bothered to use them correctly. It's also likely not to to be for every subject, more the essay ones

As a SENCo, primary teacher and exam marker for many years, believe me, scribes are very very common in exams. In a reading test, spelling and punctuation doesn’t matter, either via a scribe or a student. A grammar test is very easy to administer with a scribe. A child who has physical difficulties in writing, there is a strong likelihood that they may also have similar challenges in using a laptop. Yes, they are effective in specific situations. A child in Year 5 will not be expected to write essays though.

Baircasolly · 29/01/2024 21:23

JaffavsCookie · 29/01/2024 21:16

Thats a really unkind response OP, the pp was talking about helping your kid, and others.
You are misinterpreting what they said, if he performs well with the scribe then it is an extra lever to show that he needs support, not that he can be kept in pain the rest of the time.

Thank you. Obviously I don't know the exact ins and outs of this child/situation. Maybe the whole school really is full of vindictive teachers who enjoy watching a child in pain, and are willing to go to great lengths to keep it that way.

What I do know is the hours and hours I spend trying to accommodate all the individual needs within my various classes. And I also know that it's never, ever enough, apparently.

JaffavsCookie · 29/01/2024 21:16

Thats a really unkind response OP, the pp was talking about helping your kid, and others.
You are misinterpreting what they said, if he performs well with the scribe then it is an extra lever to show that he needs support, not that he can be kept in pain the rest of the time.

eatdrinkandbemerry · 29/01/2024 21:08

Baircasolly · 29/01/2024 21:02

This is exactly why I need to get out of teaching. It literally doesn't matter how hard you try, parents will still be furious with you.

These teachers have put in intensive (ie expensive) additional support to help this child in the test. If this results in a good score, better than he usually performs in class, this will be a huge piece of evidence that he needs that extra support!! It's not some kind of bizarre scam to prove that he doesn't need a laptop. It sounds like a scribe is a better adjustment for him than the laptop is.

So it's okay for him to be in pain daily as long as he preforms well in a test !
I think you leaving education would be a great move 🤙

OP posts:
eatdrinkandbemerry · 29/01/2024 21:06

Whapples · 29/01/2024 20:48

I am a primary teacher but you have gotten all the advice I would give.

just wondered if you’d discussed finger splints or structure gloves for writing with the GP or whichever medical care team he’s under? I have joints which are too flexible and so get pain when writing - I use these as needed. They don’t cure it obviously - he would still need to do everything else they suggest, but it allows me to still fill in a form on a bad day! Generally makes life a bit easier as it is so hard to avoid writing totally and it makes it a bit less painful to do x

These have been tried but a few years ago.
I have a joint appointment with his paediatrician and it later next week so will definitely enquire about these again.

OP posts:
Baircasolly · 29/01/2024 21:02

This is exactly why I need to get out of teaching. It literally doesn't matter how hard you try, parents will still be furious with you.

These teachers have put in intensive (ie expensive) additional support to help this child in the test. If this results in a good score, better than he usually performs in class, this will be a huge piece of evidence that he needs that extra support!! It's not some kind of bizarre scam to prove that he doesn't need a laptop. It sounds like a scribe is a better adjustment for him than the laptop is.

Sirzy · 29/01/2024 20:57

https://www.dmorthotics.com/products-and-services/product/dm18-glove-gauntlet-without-sleeve-max-4cm-length/ this is what DS has (referred via his OT) except his has longer fingers and is a bit higher past his wrist. It has made a massive difference for him especially in controlling pain.

PaperDoIIs · 29/01/2024 20:54

@eatdrinkandbemerry then why not move him? For his own sake, short term and long term. A supportive school that will help in day to day lessons and put things in place for him and support you through his EHCP can be invaluable.

I work in a school and what you say doesn't sound right to me at all. They are massively failing your child.

Whapples · 29/01/2024 20:48

I am a primary teacher but you have gotten all the advice I would give.

just wondered if you’d discussed finger splints or structure gloves for writing with the GP or whichever medical care team he’s under? I have joints which are too flexible and so get pain when writing - I use these as needed. They don’t cure it obviously - he would still need to do everything else they suggest, but it allows me to still fill in a form on a bad day! Generally makes life a bit easier as it is so hard to avoid writing totally and it makes it a bit less painful to do x

eatdrinkandbemerry · 29/01/2024 20:42

handmademitlove · 29/01/2024 20:32

Is it a maintained school or an academy?

Maintained but he will be transferring to an academy in a year and a half

OP posts:
eatdrinkandbemerry · 29/01/2024 20:41

Dismaljanuary · 29/01/2024 20:34

Op are you worried that you feel it will make it seem like he's doing ok and will be refused ehcp because there is a myth a child has to be x far behind?

You feel the school are being sneaky to try and show there isn't a problem? Which will upset tings for secondary?

No not at all.
I just find it annoying that he's going to be able to complete a test but if he was in a lesson he would maybe answer 4 questions.
It's obviously only been started in preparation for his sats but I don't give one hoot about those I'm concerned about my sons pain in his fingers without reasonable daily adjustments.
He's actually academically able and not being at all so I know he wouldn't get an ehcp for his learning it's more about the support he needs to achieve his FULL potential .

OP posts:
Dismaljanuary · 29/01/2024 20:34

Op are you worried that you feel it will make it seem like he's doing ok and will be refused ehcp because there is a myth a child has to be x far behind?

You feel the school are being sneaky to try and show there isn't a problem? Which will upset tings for secondary?

handmademitlove · 29/01/2024 20:32

Is it a maintained school or an academy?

eatdrinkandbemerry · 29/01/2024 20:28

handmademitlove · 29/01/2024 20:17

Have you followed the formal complaint procedure for the school? If they are happy to document that they are going against reasonable adjustments recommended by medical professionals they are very brave! If you have exhausted the schools complaint procedure then I would recommend a stenly worded letter advising that if they do not make reasonable adjustments as per the send code of practice you will take legal advice.....

Also - this should be much less of a problem with secondary.

we got told there are many other schools with year 5 vacancies! By the headteacher

OP posts:
eatdrinkandbemerry · 29/01/2024 20:26

Sirzy · 29/01/2024 20:08

Have OT been into school to look at reasonable adjustments? in the past we have had Ots who seem to suggest this as an easy option (for them) rather than working to help overcome the underlying issue.

laptops aren’t the be all and end all they are often painted to be, and measures should still be put in place to aid writing and strengthening hands in general. They need to be strong enough to be able to cope with typing anyway!

my son now wears a custom made Lycra glove when writing to provide him with the support his muscles can’t. He also has an intensive program of exercises as well as specific pens etc. When younger he used writing slopes and still uses a base for him books.

he does use a laptop for some longer bits of writing, he also has a scribe if needed which is actually more use in a lot of circumstances! (He is 14 now)

Edited

His ot goes in very often and leaves frustrated.
They also won't do joint strengthening exercises that she would like them to do but that's okay we do extra at home.
He can type a little due to practice at home its faster than his writing but more importantly it doesn't cause him as much pain.
It's a great school in general and they provide lots of wonderful opportunities for the children but SEN support without an EHCP is very poor.
They don't support EHCP assessments and only have one child out of 400 with one and this was issued before the child reached statutory school age.

OP posts:
Dismaljanuary · 29/01/2024 20:18

If he's not allowed q lap top in secondary he's going to struggle immensely isn't he.

Many give out laptop anyway.

handmademitlove · 29/01/2024 20:17

Have you followed the formal complaint procedure for the school? If they are happy to document that they are going against reasonable adjustments recommended by medical professionals they are very brave! If you have exhausted the schools complaint procedure then I would recommend a stenly worded letter advising that if they do not make reasonable adjustments as per the send code of practice you will take legal advice.....

Also - this should be much less of a problem with secondary.

Dismaljanuary · 29/01/2024 20:16

@eatdrinkandbemerry the scribe won't make him excel it will level him up.

I can't fathom how all those people are ignoring a disability in his fingers.

If a school was trying to make a child walk without a crutch after an leg injury or with a leg disability that would be front page news.
How is this different.

I'd say next step is formal complaint to the council and strong doctor letter and then mp.

Do you have doctor letter, do docs realise they are forcing him to write.

eatdrinkandbemerry · 29/01/2024 20:09

Dismaljanuary · 29/01/2024 20:05

And who at the school are you talking too eg Senco, head, teacher...

Have you sent a strong email with medical evidence attached copying in governers.

The senco
The head
The chair of governors
I understand using a scribe for tests but it's not a true reference to how he preforms in a classroom.
If his EHCP assessment is refused there is no guarantee that he will even be able to have the option of using one at secondary.
So in my opinion he will have test results that exceed his ability and be placed in classes that he will struggle in.

OP posts:
Sirzy · 29/01/2024 20:08

Have OT been into school to look at reasonable adjustments? in the past we have had Ots who seem to suggest this as an easy option (for them) rather than working to help overcome the underlying issue.

laptops aren’t the be all and end all they are often painted to be, and measures should still be put in place to aid writing and strengthening hands in general. They need to be strong enough to be able to cope with typing anyway!

my son now wears a custom made Lycra glove when writing to provide him with the support his muscles can’t. He also has an intensive program of exercises as well as specific pens etc. When younger he used writing slopes and still uses a base for him books.

he does use a laptop for some longer bits of writing, he also has a scribe if needed which is actually more use in a lot of circumstances! (He is 14 now)

Aim92 · 29/01/2024 20:07

Dismaljanuary · 29/01/2024 20:06

@Aim92

Im sorry but that is simply not true.

What isn’t?