Told off for not praying

Coffeeandcatsforlife · 2023-12-18T16:58:02+00:00

my son goes to a regular non religious mainstream primary school and he’s told me the head teacher was shouting at the year 3 children who weren’t praying in assembly. I asked what exactly he meant thinking maybe they were playing up but apparently it’s just not putting hands together to pray. We’re from an atheist family so praying isn’t something we do. Is she right to reprimand not praying? Surely not? My son is year 6 and wasn’t praying just sat quietly but as he’s year 6 and at back wasn’t spotted.

jgw1 · 19/12/2023 08:15

Catza · 18/12/2023 17:31

@donquixotedelamancha
All schools are required by law to perform prayers every day.

Surely this can't be right. They may be required by law to provide space and time for prayers for those who wish to engage with the practice but I can't believe the state would legislate for compulsory daily prayer in schools.

Edited

Every school in the country is required by law to have a daily act of collective worship for all pupils of a broadly Christian nature.
Which means that almost every school in the country should fail every inspection.

crummi · 19/12/2023 08:11

abominablesnowman · 19/12/2023 01:02

I remember at school 20 years ago being annoyed and at times angry at being forced to pray and sing hymns every day. I ended up just staying quiet most of the time but looking bad it's pretty shocking that that was the case. It's absolutely indefensible that this is still a thing that is forced on children.

Is there an opt-out? Because there really should be. Nobody should even be forced to be there and be indoctrinated like that, even if they do just stay silent. There is nothing 'respectful' about making people listen to it.

Yes, any parent can opt their child out of collective worship, but unfortunately it means they miss any secular aspects of the assembly too - announcements, celebrations etc.

Most parents in non-faith schools don't feel it necessary to use the opt-out because their schools don't comply with the worship requirement anyway. Ironically, the low number of opt-outs is cited as one of the reasons not to change the Collective Worship law when it ocasionally gets debated in Parliament.

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 06:26

abominablesnowman · 19/12/2023 01:02

I remember at school 20 years ago being annoyed and at times angry at being forced to pray and sing hymns every day. I ended up just staying quiet most of the time but looking bad it's pretty shocking that that was the case. It's absolutely indefensible that this is still a thing that is forced on children.

Is there an opt-out? Because there really should be. Nobody should even be forced to be there and be indoctrinated like that, even if they do just stay silent. There is nothing 'respectful' about making people listen to it.

I believe parent's can opt their DC out.

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 06:23

Soapboxqueen · 18/12/2023 22:24

They'll have a reflection time, circle time, thought for the day, thoughts for the week or even just form group activities etc etc etc I've seen philosophy for children used in this way too.

The collective element doesn't have to be the whole school or whole year group.

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Possibly but that's not worship.

UndertheCedartree · 19/12/2023 06:20

5foot5 · 18/12/2023 22:06

I am not religious but I can remember this being explained when I was a small child at school. We were told that you don't actually need to bow your head and put your hands together to pray, but it is a good idea to because bowing your head means you don't get distracted by things around you and putting your hands together stops you from fidgeting.

I suppose this same reasoning could be used to justify asking the children to do this even if you don't expect them all to be praying, but want them to be respectful and contemplative.

How would you feel if someone was teaching them meditation techniques or something and wanted them to shut their eyes.

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When you teach meditation you ask people to shut their eyes only if they feel comfortable doing so.

penjil · 19/12/2023 02:09

You don't have to physically put your hands together to pray anyway. That's cartoon stuff.

🙄

IdaPolly · 19/12/2023 01:16

hitherandhither · 18/12/2023 17:12

I work in a primary and feel it's far more likely if your DS was at the back he didn't see what had happened prior to the head reprimanding the year 3s. Staff also learn to project their voice to be heard above the noise of noisy children. A hall full of excited primary aged children just before Christmas break would definitely need the head to project their voice to be heard loudly!

We don't enforce hands together but we do expect respect for all religions so quiet sitting and listening with heads bowed to use the time to focus and reflect.

I agree this is far more likely. I wouldn't worry that your son is going to be shouted at while sitting sensibly.

abominablesnowman · 19/12/2023 01:02

I remember at school 20 years ago being annoyed and at times angry at being forced to pray and sing hymns every day. I ended up just staying quiet most of the time but looking bad it's pretty shocking that that was the case. It's absolutely indefensible that this is still a thing that is forced on children.

Is there an opt-out? Because there really should be. Nobody should even be forced to be there and be indoctrinated like that, even if they do just stay silent. There is nothing 'respectful' about making people listen to it.

RobertaFirmino · 19/12/2023 00:09

Oh come on now, these DC will have been whispering or otherwise messing. Did you not whisper, pass a note, hold back sniggers or pull a face in assembly? Not even once?

Original poster

Coffeeandcatsforlife · 18/12/2023 22:41

My son is a “I wish I had a class full of your child” type child. He’s very respectful, anxious, timid (working progress-trying or teach him to be more self assured, confident in himself. He was just sat quietly. I’ve told him he doesn’t need to put his hands together or bow his head to pray, if she does ever shout at him for not doing so then to just be polite and respectful and tell me and I’ll go speak to her.

OP posts:

Vintageport · 18/12/2023 22:36

TheCave · 18/12/2023 22:21

No idea on the legal / Ofsted requirements here but my child's school (Ofsted outstanding and a place where student teachers get trained, generally held out as a model school) does not have any prayers. I would frankly hit the absolute roof if they tried to make her do this. She wouldn't even know what a prayer is. The most Christianity she gets is a not very traditional Nativity play (when I only slightly twitch at some of the God / Jesus references). Generally they learn about all religions and don't push any single religion on the children, which is exactly what I favour personally.

If they learn about all religions surely she knows what a prayer is? Its an integral aspect of religion, even if you teach it from a secular perspective.

Soapboxqueen · 18/12/2023 22:24

UndertheCedartree · 18/12/2023 21:21

Most schools (around here) seem to not have daily assemblies anymore anyway so not sure where this 'collective worship' is meant to happen.

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They'll have a reflection time, circle time, thought for the day, thoughts for the week or even just form group activities etc etc etc I've seen philosophy for children used in this way too.

The collective element doesn't have to be the whole school or whole year group.

TheCave · 18/12/2023 22:22

Having said this, if we were in a place of worship we would absolutely be respectful and no messing about would be tolerated. My point is that not all schools are making kids pray.

mathanxiety · 18/12/2023 22:22

It's a non religious school - why was there praying?

TheCave · 18/12/2023 22:21

No idea on the legal / Ofsted requirements here but my child's school (Ofsted outstanding and a place where student teachers get trained, generally held out as a model school) does not have any prayers. I would frankly hit the absolute roof if they tried to make her do this. She wouldn't even know what a prayer is. The most Christianity she gets is a not very traditional Nativity play (when I only slightly twitch at some of the God / Jesus references). Generally they learn about all religions and don't push any single religion on the children, which is exactly what I favour personally.

MasterBeth · 18/12/2023 22:12

5foot5 · 18/12/2023 22:06

I am not religious but I can remember this being explained when I was a small child at school. We were told that you don't actually need to bow your head and put your hands together to pray, but it is a good idea to because bowing your head means you don't get distracted by things around you and putting your hands together stops you from fidgeting.

I suppose this same reasoning could be used to justify asking the children to do this even if you don't expect them all to be praying, but want them to be respectful and contemplative.

How would you feel if someone was teaching them meditation techniques or something and wanted them to shut their eyes.

Show quote history

I would think meditation is not religion and you don’t need to adopt the tropes of prayer to be respectful.

5foot5 · 18/12/2023 22:06

Benibidibici · 18/12/2023 17:50

Putting your hands together and bowing your head when others pray is not a sign of respect, it is forced participation. The only action required is silence and relative stillness, I.e not getting up and walking around.

This. Anyone who asks my child to bow their deferentially to a god they don't believe in, in a state funded school, when there are no non faith schools provided to the local population, will get the sharp edge of my tongue.

I am not religious but I can remember this being explained when I was a small child at school. We were told that you don't actually need to bow your head and put your hands together to pray, but it is a good idea to because bowing your head means you don't get distracted by things around you and putting your hands together stops you from fidgeting.

I suppose this same reasoning could be used to justify asking the children to do this even if you don't expect them all to be praying, but want them to be respectful and contemplative.

How would you feel if someone was teaching them meditation techniques or something and wanted them to shut their eyes.

UndertheCedartree · 18/12/2023 22:02

MadeOfAllWork · 18/12/2023 21:38

They don’t get together as a school at all?

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They used to have assembly once a week but they didn't sing hymns or pray.

Pigeonrific · 18/12/2023 21:51

Pretty much allr religion is just different methods of oppressing women. Take the middle east for example, people perfectly capable of living in peace yet because they oppress women in slightly different ways there's full on war. Ridiculous, I have no time for any of it

tencent · 18/12/2023 21:46

@DragonMama3 no, sorry, I can see how I've been ambiguous there. The provision of collective worship is mandatory for over 5s, or unless you withdraw your child (or was, as I say I left teaching in 2016). It was my own personal experience from teaching in several different schools where I saw children reprimanded for not praying. That was of course not mandatory, nevertheless, there were teachers who thought it should be and acted accordingly. I myself was reprimanded when I didn't join in with a 'Jesus is the reason for the season' chant in assembly one morning, when an evangelical couple were the guest speakers.

crummi · 18/12/2023 21:40

MadeOfAllWork · 18/12/2023 21:05

Schools are required to do a daily act of worship. That doesn’t mean prayers.

As said above this can be a conversation about kindness or sharing etc. and singing secular songs.

The DfE's definition of worship in this context is "reverence or veneration paid to a divine being or power." See the wikipedia article: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collectiveworship_in_schools

Conversations about kindness, sharing and singing secular songs are not Collective Worship, but that doesn't really matter because Ofsted doesn't inspect it, and most non-faith schools don't comply with the requirement. It's been so long since it was inspected (2004) that a whole generation of teachers have never had to do it, and don't know what true compliance would look like. There'd be a massive backlash if inspection was ever re-introduced, and a tidal-wave of parents opting their kids out of it. That's why it's easier for the Government to just turn a blind eye instead.

MasterBeth · 18/12/2023 21:39

donquixotedelamancha · 18/12/2023 17:06

I (atheist) teach at a religious school, everyone puts their hands together and bows their heads when we pray. I think that's a reasonable expectation to show respect for others beliefs.

There are no state non-religious schools in the UK, most schools default to the state religion (CofE). All schools are required by law to perform prayers every day.

Lots of high schools don't do daily prayers but it's still the norm in most primaries.

Huge disagree.

Why should anyone be expected to put their hands together as if in an act of prayer when they’re not praying?

Of course, don’t disrupt others’ praying, but silence and stillness should be sufficient. Absolute bullshit to demand cosplay prayer.

MadeOfAllWork · 18/12/2023 21:38

UndertheCedartree · 18/12/2023 21:16

My DD doesn't. And in fact I don't think I ever sang that at school, I sung it at church. When I was at school we had the Mormons coming in and doing songs with us. I remember singing 'he's got the whole world in his hand'.

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They don’t get together as a school at all?

DragonMama3 · 18/12/2023 21:38

tencent · 18/12/2023 17:39

I'm an ex teacher in Wales @Catza and the requirement is that 'schools must provide collective worship daily for all registered pupils' . From Estyn, which is like OFSTED https://www.estyn.gov.wales/system/files/2020-07/NIA%2520Supplementary%2520guidance%2520-%2520collective%2520worship_0.pdf . However, parents can request their child be excused and there is no legal requirement for those under the age of five. I have taught in several schools where children were reprimanded for not praying - not by me I hasten to add, I have no belief.

Neither Estyn nor Ofsted state praying is mandatory AFAIK.

conviviality · 18/12/2023 21:36

I’ve done primary supply teaching for years so sat in approx a million assemblies, the only time I’ve seen this happen was in two catholic schools, others kids had to be quiet but didn’t actually have to put hands together. And certainly wouldn’t be in trouble for not putting hands together.