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AIBU?

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Had enough with excuses for bad behaviour

64 replies

Ribenaberry12 · 12/12/2023 19:50

I work in a secondary school and have done for a long time (20 odd years). I currently work in a pastoral support role and part of my job is contacting parents to let them know when their child has been placed in detention/isolation. I reckon that, in the last term, 9/10 parents have argued with me and/or tried to excuse their child’s behaviour. Even when the situation is 100% clear cut - think caught vaping or heard swearing. I’m getting sick of it and thinking about jacking it in.

I’m a patient person, I’m good at my job and my school is really good - we have lots of support strategies that we offer but I’m just sick of the lack of accountability from parents. Honestly, some of the excuses I’ve been given are unbelievable.

I used to phone parents and they’d apologise for their kid’s behaviour and we’d work together to support them and we’d make sure it didn’t happen again. The bond you’d get with kids and their families when the kids turned it around was fantastic and it was great to see their successes. Now I cannot remember the last time a parent admitted that their kid was in the wrong and didn’t argue the toss - sometimes aggressively, sometimes pinging off countless emails at all hours of the day and night. Sometimes personally attacking staff who have pulled their kids up. It’s so time consuming and draining. I see the teachers and SLT so drained by it too. It’s never been this bad.

AIBU?
YABU - it’s your job, suck it up
YANBU - there’s a lack of accountability and it sucks

OP posts:
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BusyMum47 · 13/12/2023 08:16

@Ribenaberry12
I hear ya! I work in a Primary School & it's exactly the same...when they're younger than 11yrs!! Always someone else's fault or a crap 'excuse' for the horrific rudeness, aggression, blatant disregard for the rules everyone else has to follow. It's exhausting, frustrating & soul destroying!!
I've worked in education for years & I'm no longer shocked to be told to f*ck off by a tiny human!! 🤦‍♀️

Pingu135 · 13/12/2023 07:54

A colleague's sister was headteacher in a primary school, she overheard a father telling his 3 year starting school for the first time, that he didn't have to do what the teachers told him and that if the teacher told him off to tell his Dad who would go and sort the teacher out. What chance do teachers have. No wonder so many people act so badly - there are no boundaries

My parents told me 'listen to your teacher and do what you're told' and I said the same to my children.

Firefly2009 · 13/12/2023 07:05

I remember watching some video last year(?) about how even when some parents were shown a video of their child doing something wrong, they still denied it and still defended their child. It is a real problem and I wouldn't do your job under such circumstances.

MPY24 · 13/12/2023 06:53

One of the issues I think comes from this "every behaviour is communication". Now that may well work in most cases for little kids. It really does not apply to 15 year olds. Because they are often "communicating" that they just do not want to be there and they could not care less about maths or whatever.
So when a 6ft3 15 year old boys tells a teacher to go fuck herself and throws a chair, everyone is meant to try and figure out why he's behaving like that. And even when the school do want to punish, for some reason every punishment is deemed "awful" by the parents.
Does no one remember being a teenager? I was actually a pretty well behaved teenager but definitely had my silly moments. I remember with 3 friends taking all the loo roll out the cubicles and putting them in the bin at school. Why? No idea. It just seemed a funny idea at the time. I wasn't "communicating" that I was unhappy or whatever. I was being a stupid teenager. Looking back now I'm horrified at myself and just cannot understand why I thought it was funny. But the fact is at the time I did. We never got caught but if we had we should have rightly been punished. I never did anything else like that again at school (I was normally too scared of getting in trouble) but it goes to show that sometimes kids just do stupid/ badly behaved things that are nothing to do with "communicating" or their needs not being met etc etc.

Elendel · 13/12/2023 05:11

I had a brief chat with a pastoral lead yesterday and they said exactly the same as you, OP.

They also said they were sick and tired of going to work to be abused every day, by kids and by parents. Parents laughing when they hear their kids call teachers bitches, saying they use the same language at home. Parents ringing in over every negative point, questioning every thing, denying their kids ever do anything wrong.

So many parents just don't parent. I am having arguments with my child at the moment who say their 6-year-old peers are freely allowed onto 18+ games and social media, have unlimited access to tablets, questioning why I deny them access to social media until they're 13 and older games until much later.

The system is truly broken and I have no idea how we will steer it back on track.

JudgeJ · 13/12/2023 04:26

The motto of too many parents is Discipline is what other people's children need.

JudgeJ · 13/12/2023 04:23

GreyhpundGirl · 12/12/2023 20:38

I have worked as a secondary school teacher for 20+ years. Covid has had an enormous impact, especially on the younger ones. Colleagues who work in different places say the same.

Edited

It goes back further, I recall when 'entitlement ' became the buzzword in the early 2000s, they had to be taught their 'entitlement ' with no reference to their responsibilities and they're now the parents.

stayathomer · 13/12/2023 04:13

AuntPru
I know, yes, it was more to let them know it wasn’t his fault- him and his brother were sitting in the car ready on both occasions- was that one of my other sons had to go to the toilet in one case, and in the other that the cat had run under the car! Was more to let them know he had nothing to do with it, nothing they can do I know, they have to warn but just so they don’t think he’s dawdling along, or went to the shop before school or something

GarlicMaybeNot · 12/12/2023 23:49

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 23:34

I’m not sure if maybe there’s something I’m not getting, because of my socioeconomic background. It’s my experience that young people go through a phrase of swearing when they talk a lot more than older adults do.

That's often true ... and? "I swear a lot" is the feeblest of excuses for swearing in class!

I swear a lot. I'm more than capable of not swearing in a formal situation. It's a skill that all we foul-mouthed people need: school's an excellent place to develop this skill.

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 23:34

AuntPru · 12/12/2023 23:18

Say what now??? Swearing at school is completely unacceptable! At my work I think it would be a two hour head's detention, but "detention" can be anything from being kept behind five minutes at break, and you think that's too harsh? How about all their behaviour being shaped by their peers??? And also, if I have a sweaty colleague, does that mean that I can swear in front of a class? After all I am also influenced by my peers.

I’m not sure if maybe there’s something I’m not getting, because of my socioeconomic background. It’s my experience that young people go through a phrase of swearing when they talk a lot more than older adults do.

User10932 · 12/12/2023 23:31

True story - a child dropped litter on the floor and refused to pick it up when asked. Mum called school to complain her DC shouldn’t be picking rubbish up off the floor and that should be the teachers job… her DC is 4… I despair.

AuntPru · 12/12/2023 23:27

jimbort · 12/12/2023 21:27

My son was recently suspended for 2 days for vaping cannabis and I was totally apologetic to the school. They just wanted to support him. I was happy for them to report him to the police as he needs to answer for his own actions. The parents of the other boy were happy to sweep it under the carpet and I was very shocked. Like if he never takes responsibility and is honest then he will be a monstrous adult. YANBU at all. I don't understand what goes through some parents heads.

A two day exclusion is incredibly mild for cannabis use! At all our local schools, drugs = permanent exclusion.

Our HT told me about getting involved in an argument with the parent of a girl caught dealing on site. Parent didn't think permanent exclusion was warranted, because the dope wasn't even that good anyway. Jesus wept.

bakebeans · 12/12/2023 23:27

You only have to read some responses to some of the threads on here. They need their medication increasing??? Automatically.
no punishment, no consequences.
i wonder if it will be the same response if they grow up and kill someone?

AuntPru · 12/12/2023 23:21

stayathomer · 12/12/2023 20:04

I say yanbu but I did make an excuse for son the other day, got a mail to say he’d been late in and I said both times were our fault as late getting out of the house. They ignored it and I got a please talk to your son about his lateness back!

So school emailed to say your child was late and to discuss this with your child, and you replied to say "we left the house late"? Late is late, they can't tell you to make sure you're not late, but what else do you expect them to do???

Firecarrier · 12/12/2023 23:20

It's the same at college.

Parents insisting their child 'can't help' telling us to Fuck off because of ADHD/anxiety etc but it's fine for us to be verbally abused and disrespected when simply trying to do a job.

Fionaville · 12/12/2023 23:19

Coyoacan · 12/12/2023 22:04

I think I am older than you but I was always in trouble at school but it was not the culture in those days to call parents about punishments. I think my mother was only called in when they were thinking of expelling me

Same. I left school in the 90s. I got a few detentions in school and my parents were never contacted. I'd have to tell them I'd be home late the next day because I had detention. I think it fostered better parent relations, because they knew I'd done something to deserve it and supported the teachers decision. Rather than them getting a call to say I'd been put in isolation for wearing my tie wrong or for wearing shoes that were not quite right.

AuntPru · 12/12/2023 23:18

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 22:20

Swearing isn’t a good way for someone to talk but detention is harsh. They just need to be told not to talk like that. It’s not deliberate misbehaviour. It’s someone’s speech being shaped by their peers.

Edited

Say what now??? Swearing at school is completely unacceptable! At my work I think it would be a two hour head's detention, but "detention" can be anything from being kept behind five minutes at break, and you think that's too harsh? How about all their behaviour being shaped by their peers??? And also, if I have a sweaty colleague, does that mean that I can swear in front of a class? After all I am also influenced by my peers.

JustFrustrated · 12/12/2023 23:13

grafittiartist · 12/12/2023 20:03

Yep- there's been a big shift recently.
Kids just assume their parents will back them up, and they're usually right. Regardless of what has happened.
Happens on here all the time- teachers judgements being questioned.

Are we not allowed to question teachers now?

A pp up thread clearly detailed how the school, via their own system which they set up and use, was wrong. Not her child. Is she supposed to just ....say nothing?

Because as an adult in the work place, I wouldn't say nothing if my boss was telling me I was wrong about something they'd told me, and added to the system.

Or was the parent of the boy in my DDs class wrong for questioning the teacher as to why she wouldn't allow him to attend either the bathroom/nurse/SIT desk for help when he was bleeding? As an adult I wouldn't sit in a meeting bleeding, I'd go sort it out.

I'm not "one of those" parents. I back the school in 99% of cases, but there are most definitely times you need to question their judgement. Respectfully, always, but question none the less.

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 23:05

TomatoSandwiches · 12/12/2023 22:50

Utter nonsense, a secondary school aged child knows swearing is not acceptable and detention is a perfectly appropriate consequence.

I think it can be that they know not to swear around adults and they slip up. (In some cases). I keep hearing my son swearing at his friends on his computer. I tell him to stop it and he apologises. But I think he’s doing it quietly and then not realising how loud he’s talking. He comes in like, “did you hear that ?”

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 12/12/2023 23:03

I am not saying they are always reasonable, but often the overly Draconian rules are a response to extreme behaviour. It's often touted to schools that if you sweat the small stuff eg uniform, then you get less big behaviour issues. I think this might have been true 10 or so years ago but I'm not so convinced now.

Rules around going to the toilet etc are very often because of issues around vaping, or vandalism in the toilets (as well as mental health concerns etc). I do get that most kids don't get involved in this sort of thing, but you'd be surprised how many will follow the crowd when it's going on. So students are banned from using toilets that can't be easily supervised - and I can see why it creates flashpoints and conflict with parents thinking it's unreasonable, but it's often the only way to keep the school site safe.

I think parents need to remember at secondary school their child is one of hundreds, and if 500 other children were behaving that way, would it be a problem? If so, it's not a minor issue and the parents should back the school.

Fwiw, I do think a lot of school behaviour policies emphasise phoning home as well, whereas even when I was at school 15-20 years ago it was a rare occurrence. Phoning home for every little thing reduces the impact and creates lots of extra work for teachers.

noooooooo · 12/12/2023 23:00

OP, I have a thought. Could any of this be down to the fact that schools lack the will and resources to deal with the worst behaviour?

Very clearly, at one time (I’m 45) teachers laid down the law and parents, for the most part, supported their decisions. If I got into the most trivial bit of bother at school I made damn sure my parents didn’t find out because I’d have been in double trouble. Most teens were wary of teachers (apart from the seriously anti-social children) and for the most part ill behaviour wasn’t tolerated. I remember kids being hauled out of class for verbal rudeness, for example. I went to a very rough school. There were SMT with absolute authority and kids ran when they saw them coming because they knew they wouldn’t like the consequences. No corporal punishment in the nineties but the next step was a behaviour card, whereafter persistent offenders were removed to a separate location and taught by specialists. Thereafter, permanent exclusion. It wasn’t that uncommon for people just to be removed and not return.

However, discipline has become increasingly lax and it’s hard to believe the disintegration of behaviour within state schools has been entirely parent-led. I was recently told by a HT that there was very little she could actually do about pupil
behaviour; bullying, for example, was basically survival of the fittest. Yes, some entitled parents backed their kids, but even where they didn’t, if kids didn’t straighten up and fly right after multiple warnings, exclusion was not only a last resort, but a toothless tiger. ‘These kids want to be excluded. It’s a result’ was what we were told. ‘There’s not much we can do.’ She seemed to expect sympathy.

Our LA doesn’t want to assume responsibility for finding places for kids who are permanently excluded. It would mean taxis and inconvenience and extra expense. The consequences rest with them, and not the parents. The responsibility to educate the worst offenders elsewhere ultimately lies with the state and they don’t want to do that, there doesn’t seem to be an answer anymore.

So I think the system is broken. Lack of discipline may be partially down to lack of parental support, no doubt, but increasingly the horse is following the cart. The inevitable result is a rapidly increasing lack of respect for staff. In my son’s school, for example, there are kids who gleefully tell teachers to get fucked - literally nothing happens. Quite often it’s let go. Yet guidance will argue the toss til they’re blue in the face about what sort of jumper a child should wear. It feels a lot like they’re taking the path of least resistance, and it’s setting a very poor example. My analogy would be letting the worst criminals off Scot-free, because keeping people in prison for a lifetime costs a lot of money. ‘It’s just too complex and pricey to prosecute and incarcerate the murderers, so let’s clamp down doubly on the petty thieves and vandals.’ Where does that lead?

Which is not to say I don’t have sympathy with you as a teacher. It must be very hard to receive so little support from the people who could help you do your job well. However, I think perhaps those in charge need to work a little harder to get their own house in order.

Flatandhappy · 12/12/2023 22:55

I gave up working as a mediator for the same kind of reasons, nobody would take responsibility for their actions, it was always someone else’s fault, all willingness to negotiate or try and reach a compromise was gone. It got soul destroying and it wasn’t always that way. I think COVID has made people even more selfish and insular than before so what you describe doesn’t surprise me.

Passingthethyme · 12/12/2023 22:51

Gawd, reading some of the comments on here, so many excuses. How depressing. I take it back OP, you should quit and get another job.

TomatoSandwiches · 12/12/2023 22:50

NightmareGirl · 12/12/2023 22:20

Swearing isn’t a good way for someone to talk but detention is harsh. They just need to be told not to talk like that. It’s not deliberate misbehaviour. It’s someone’s speech being shaped by their peers.

Edited

Utter nonsense, a secondary school aged child knows swearing is not acceptable and detention is a perfectly appropriate consequence.

Passingthethyme · 12/12/2023 22:49

ghostyslovesheets · 12/12/2023 19:59

I hear you - but maybe those kids behave that way because they go home to parents who don't give a shit, don't set boundaries, don't care - often kids act up with people and in places they feel safe

You're doing the exact same thing, most likely the kids are spoilt brats unless coming from poverty stricken families. YANBU, but do know there are many of us out here who appreciate everything you do

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