PIP

My friend's daughter in her 20s has aggressive MS, not the relapsing/remitting type. She cannot walk at all now, she can't get from a wheelchair to a chair and is lifted with a hoist. She has a catheter and needs someone to empty it. I think she has something for her bowels but that's private, I only know about the catheter because once a carer didn't close it properly after emptying it and there was a story. She can't cook or prepare food. She drinks cordial from a pouch with a tube attached when she is alone. She can eat finger foods but often drops them or inadvertently flings them about which she laughs about (her dark humour gets her through). Quite rightly she gets full PIP. The vast majority of which (care component) she pays to the local council to contribute to the cost of her Carers who come in pairs six times over 24 hours. She does not therefore have several hundred pounds a month to pay for the things that some of the claimants here do - heating, holidays, therapies. As she has to use her PIP for physical care without which she would die she ought to get a higher rate. She has been turned down for free care because the threshold is very high.

Oh my goodness. You needed to write that?

How is a fully functioning person able to claim pip? Or even be classed as disabled?

Not really the same thing as pensioners have paid into the system over a number of years to qualify for state pension

Most of the Boomers over their lifetimes will pay £400k each less into the state on average than they take out in services and pensions.

Many of the higher earners claiming PIP will still pay in far more than they take out because the average millennial will be paying in £300k more than they receive back in services and pensions (and that's assuming the current state pension still exists when they retire!) so the higher earners will pay in far, far more and PIP will be just a slight deduction from that.

Your argument is nonsense.

Thank you for this. The comments saying how people who manage to earn decent salaries despite their disabilities shouldn't be entitled to PIP are particularly ableist and disgusting and clearly fail to understand the entire purpose of its existence separate to income-related benefits (which include separate uprated amounts for disability for those on low incomes). PIP is to fund the very basics of the costs of being disabled, and doesn't even come close to doing that.

To be in a full time (I assume) management position and get enhanced daily living and mobility is interesting.

Why? Have you never heard of home working? Lots of people are too sick to go out, can barely move around their own house, often can't even shower or get dressed or prepare food but do manage to work on a laptop with regular breaks doing skilled work. At huge cost to their energy and in significant pain, but they carry on doing it. Why is this so inconceivable to you? You know nothing about other people's lives so stick your judgement and nasty insinuations somewhere not very sunny.

Green eyed monster idiots with no grasp of economics.

So what you are saying is anyone who claims PIP is disabled and takes hours to get ready for work? How do you explain the number of people who are claiming PIP that are fully mobile. Have no special needs. Are fit to work - and manage to work a manual job 5 days a week? They are also able to come home from work, shower, change and be in the pub within the hour?

Im not being disrespectful or “ridiculous”! I stated I have no idea how PIP works when some fully functioning people are able to claim it - when they are in full time employment so obviously are able to prepare a simple meal for themselves - one of the first questions on the application form. Meanwhile, people who are not able to work, due to severe pain, needing help or other factors, but can throw a ready meal in the microwave at some point during the day, are not eligible for PIP. You came at me with a scathing attack.

I’m still no wiser since you explained about disabled people needing extra time to get ready for work. My sister has no chance of getting up, showered and ready for work - on any day! She has applied for PIP several times because she’s home all day - she has no choice - but cannot afford to put the heating on or pay someone to help her get out of bed and get dressed. She is now suicidal. But please don’t you worry about others. You’re alright Jack!! You can, obviously afford to pay someone to help you get up and ready for work. How does someone pay a carer to sort them out when they have no money??

I asked a simple question. All I wanted was advice for my sister. You have been no help whatsoever!

Thank you to the posters who share my confusion around the application process for PIP. I guess it’s a case of try, fail and appeal. Repeat until your application is accepted… If ever

It’s soul destroying watching someone you love suffer every hour of every day and there’s nothing you can do about it.

Yeah but things aren’t equal are they, because if they were, then Richard Branson would be obliged to give me some of his money! It seems bizarre for governments to say that things need to be equal, but then allow many inequalities to exist.

And what about equality between the people who get PIP? If someone on minimum wage gets PIP, it might make them equal to someone else on minimum wage who doesn’t have a disability. But it doesn’t take them anywhere near Rishi Sunak’s family. If the billionaires didn’t claim their PIP, then there’d be more in the pot for the minimum wagers. So equality is nowhere near achieved. If it was means tested there’d be more money available for the people who would really notice it.

It's not about "making everyone equal" in some kind of impossible communist sense. It's about levelling the playing field financially between disabled people and non-disabled people so that disabled people aren't financially disadvantaged because of their disability on top of the daily struggles and pain they are already going through. That is why it is not means tested, nor should it be. In fact those who are high earners and receive PIP have more than paid for it, and helped to pay for it and other services for everyone else, despite their disabilities and should be applauded for managing to work and do that.

This is why the social contract in the UK is breaking down: higher earners accept they fund services for everyone else but if you start trying to deny them access to the services they pay for as well then the system inevitably will collapse. Try to contain your envy for people who struggle in pain every day for years and receive a small amount of money (or tax refund) to help cover the cost that comes with that. It doesn't take the pain away or the impact on life. And frankly to truly cover the cost of disability properly PIP payments should be doubled.

It’s not about whether someone can get themselves out of bed and to work on time, it’s about how they do it - the degree of difficulty, the time taken, the amount of help they need. That’s what PIP assesses for. You’re assuming that because someone is sitting at their desk on time, they don’t struggle, and that’s absurd. I have known disabled people who have to get up at the crack of dawn in order to get ready for work on time, and who deal with incontinence issues and all kinds of other disability related complications that would exhaust the average person before they even got over the doorstep, never mind to the workplace.

Unfortunately PIP doesn’t assess the disability itself, but how it affects the claimant in their day to day life across a range of personal care and mobility activities - how well they carry out each activity, how long it takes, the pain/after effects, how much help they need, whether they use aids or appliances.

The assumption is that no two people with the same disability will be affected in exactly the same way, or to the same degree. That’s the starting point, and also the biggest flaw. Because not everyone can present themselves well at assessment, not everyone is truthful about how much they struggle because it hurts their pride or they find it embarrassing to be grilled about what most people would consider the most private and intimate details. And not everyone has adequate medical evidence to hand. Some assessors and decision makers are better than others, and a few really shouldn’t be doing the job.

These are just some of the reasons why some decisions don’t make any sense. It’s not a fair system and it wasn’t designed to support disabled people - it was designed to save money because the government of the day decided that too much was being spent on disability benefits, therefore it must be too easy to claim. So they went the other way and made it harder for the very people it’s supposed to support. So blame that, and don’t assume disabled people must be cheating somehow if they can work or go on holiday - these are things PIP was designed to enable.

What you and quite a few others on this depressing thread need to realise is that unless you live with someone 24 hours a day you can’t possibly know everything there is to know about their medical condition. And unless you have access to their medical records, and are qualified to interpret them, and you’re also privy to the details of their benefit claim, you really aren’t qualified to sit in smug and largely ignorant judgement.

Overpayment that should say in the last paragraph

You have never done a pip assessment then or seen the struggles people have to get it.

Let's put it this way the rate of appeals at independent tribunals are 70% success rate because the dwp doesn't do their job properly.

I'll give you a correct example: 100 people apply for PIP. 100 people get turned down.

70 people will then ask for a mandatory consideration. Those 70 people will get turned down.

Only 40 approx will apply for an appeal. At appeal, 70% of those 40 will get an award. So that is 30 people.

Out of the original 100 people, 70 were entitled to an award. Only 30 people get one. Job done As pip have saved 40 people in every 100 who don't get it getting an award.

If you don't have help to fill those forms in, you won't get it as it's been made as difficult as possible. I could continue, but you should get the just.

Being disabled is not fun and does cost more in hidden costs you won't see.

Oh, and for your info, the fraud cost of disability benefits is. 0.05%

5 billion is in hndwepaymenr and fraud. 24 billion is in unclaimed benefits. They are gaining anyway.

It's no wonder there is so much in unpaid benefits as it's been made so difficult to claim and people aren't told about it

Once the DWP realise you are prepared to take your case to tribunal, they will review the case themselves when they receive the tribunal request for evidence and reasoning behind the decision. If it’s clear that they are going to lose at tribunal - for example if their evidence was flawed or the decision was unlawful, they will then reassess and award benefit backdated to the original date of application.

l remember a case where a severely disabled young man was migrated from DLA to PIP and went from enhanced rate DLA care and mobility, to a nil award for both on PIP. He lost his motability car, which almost cost him his job. The reconsideration request was turned down and we prepared for appeal, and at the same time I raised a complaint via his MP. Within a week he had a letter from DWP upholding his complaint, apologising for the distress he suffered as a result, cancelling the tribunal and doubling his points in both categories, resulting in an open ended award at the enhanced rates.

Then there was the lady who lost out on enhanced daily living by one point because the assessor decided she could sit on a perching stool at a kitchen counter top to cook unaided - despite the fact that she had full length rigid callipers on both legs. Rejected at reconsideration, but the extra point was awarded and tribunal proceedings cancelled once the DWP reviewed the (preposterous) decision before tribunal and it was clear they would lose.

It’s been clear for a long time that DWP rely on the fact that a lot of claimants will not fight even a glaringly wrong decision because they can’t face the appeal process. They will only re-examine such decisions when it becomes clear that the claimant is prepared to fight, and that DWP will likely lose.

I have worked on pip applications and appeals since 2013 when it was introduced, and some of the decisions I’ve seen have actually gone with the claimants’ own medical evidence rather than the assessors’ report, and have resulted in an award/higher award. Same with some reconsideration decisions. I’ve also seen decision makers return assessment reports to the provider for review because of glaring inconsistencies with other evidence presented by the claimant, or where the assessor has actually contradicted themselves. I think it depends whether the decision maker actually cares about the quality of their decision, or is just a box ticker.

My son is nearly 21 and when he was 16 we had to make a claim for pip as he was
too old to claim DLA anymore.
one thing I don’t understand is why a person is classed as an adult at 16 for pip purposes and we all know how difficult it is to claim. Ds was receiving high rate care and low rate mobility on DLA for autism, anxiety and other issues and after attending a face to face assessment with me for support he was given a score of ZERO.
we obviously did a mandatory reconsideration and got nowhere so began the appeals process. This was in the June/July time and we were just waiting for an appeal date.

Fast forward to a week before Christmas and a letter appears from the DWP out of the blue saying “we have looked at your claim again and decided to award you 27 points” which meant enhanced for both and a large back pay. How on earth this came about I don’t know. It’s laughable to go from 0-27 points just like that and the original assessment was so inaccurate with several lies. I was his advocate and I was prepared to fight his corner. How many people just can’t face it and give up?

the system is flawed and is long overdue an overhaul. One question that seems to try and trip people up is “do you drive?” Which doesn’t always indicate that someone has care needs but is then used against them.

So how does someone who is able to get themselves out of bed, showered and in work by 8am able to to claim PIP when someone who cannot get out of bed, because they have been awake all night in pain, have no chance of working, because they are in constant pain is not eligible for PIP? I’d be extremely greatful if you could provide a simple explanation to my ridiculous question. I’ll pass it on to my dear sister who is contemplating ending her life due to relentless pain and inibility to afford to heat her one bedroom flat on basic Universal Credit. Thanks!

This is possibly the most ignorant post on the thread. PIP has absolutely nothing to do with the ability to work. It doesn’t assess capability to work, it assesses how well you can carry out a range of activities essential to daily living. And the examples you quote are beyond ridiculous and so profoundly insulting to anyone living with a disability, that it’s just absurd. You might want to do some voluntary work with the disabled to see how they really live, and how they benefit from PIP.

In years of working on PIP appeals I have never once seen the DWP Decisionmaker not go with the assessor’s recommendation as to points awarded.

Motability is a charity. Nothing to do with government - only pointing this out to thwart the posters getting ready to moan about the government giving people free cars. As this poster points out, the state pays those with the most severe mobility issues a higher rate of mobility allowance and they can then choose to pay this allowance to motability to lease a car.

I obviously don’t understand how PIP works. On one hand we have people who have been awarded PIP, who are fully mobile and are able to work 40 hours a week.

On the other hand people who are not able to work, suffer constant pain, are unable to sleep at night ( because of constant pain/ breathing difficulties)leading to mental health problems but cannot claim PIP.) How does that work?

The very first question on form for PIP is “Can you prepare a meal for yourself?” If someone is able to get themselves up, out , and in work on time then obviously they can put a meal in the microwave right? Regardless if they are/not confined to a wheelchair.

Yet someone who suffers constant pain and cannot get out of bed for hours but is able to put a microwaveable meal in the microwave at whatever time is not eligible for PIP, because they can prepare a meal for themselves. Regardless of whether they are confined to a wheelchair. They can take a shower. But only when the time is right, after taking a shedload of painkillers.

Im completely baffled by the PIP system 🤷🏻‍♀️

How do people who successfully claim PIP and are fully mobile, and able to work, answer the question “Do you need help with self care skills”? Do you have a carer come round at stupid o clock to get you up, medicated, showered, dressed and chauffeured into work? The people I know, who are happy to let neighbours know they are claiming PIP are able bodied, able to get themselves fed, showered and in work by 8am. They are also able to get up on the roof and replace roof tiles.

It makes no sense. It is beyond belief that some people have restricted mobility, yet can’t afford to buy a wheelchair, but not eligible for extra financial support to help them live their rest of their lives in “some” comfort, yet others get everything on offer. Is there an art to claiming PIP? Should claimants not tell the truth about their situation? If everyone tells the truth how are there so many people claiming PIp when they are able to work 5 days a week, sit in a pub, drinking, from 11am, on weekends, lead a perfectly normal life on a day to day basis and convert their 2 bedroom house to a 4 bedroom house by building a two storey extension, by themselves, on weekends? How is this possible?

I am truly curious how some people are eligible to claim PiP, and are self sufficient yet others who suffer are not eligible for extra payment to help make their last years on Earth more comfortable???

It’s a contentious issue. One of my family members is awarded PIP and she gets £700 every month. She works full time and lives with her husband who earns about £60k. She has a very normal life, holidays, weekends away etc - she’s got a far more active social life than me 😂

I admit that I have often wondered why she is entitled to so much when her disability doesn’t really impact on her life. Ironically, I have the same disability as her, so we talk about it a lot and how in impacts on our lives, both physically and emotionally.

Although I’ve had the disability for over 20 years I have never previously claimed PIP as I didn’t feel it was money I was entitled to as although my health condition is quite serious, I never considered its effects to need financial reimbursement. My disability affected my life on a day-to-day basis but it didn’t incur any extra financial costs.

Over the last few years though my health has deteriorated to the point where I now can’t work and so two months ago I applied for PIP, still not really believing it was something I deserved or would get.

However, last week I heard from the DWP who said they are going to award me PIP and that they will send me an official report in the post to explain their decision and inform me of the amount I will receive.

I will be very interested to read the report and see what it was that made them feel I was entitled to financial support when I know others who have it far worse are declined.

I belong to an online support group
for my disability and PIP comes up a lot and it definitely seems that it’s very hit and miss as to who is awarded it and who isn’t. Like I said, there are people who are affected by this disability far more than I am and haven’t been awarded, whereas I got it on my first try.

There doesn’t seem any logic to it.

This is not how it works. PIP claimants have to provide proper medical and other types of evidence to support everything they say, and even with medical evidence, most will undergo a face to face assessment with a DWP appointed assessor who will provide a report to the DWP, on which the case manager will largely base their decision, along with any other relevant input. Word of mouth and complaining to your GP won’t get you PIP. Or any other disability/sickness benefit for that matter.

Just to correct a couple of points. PIP doesn’t stop at 65. If you were awarded PIP before age 65 you can continue to claim it for as long as you satisfy the qualifying conditions. You can’t make a new claim for PIP after age 65 and if you’re an existing claimant who doesn’t qualify for the mobility component or claim the lower rate of it, you can’t apply for a new or higher mobility award after age 65.

And overnight stays in hospital do not affect PIP. You are allowed 28 days in hospital before the benefit is suspended and can reclaim when you leave hospital.

It actually doesn’t because the person you see at assessment doesn’t make the final benefit decision. That decision is made by a DWP case manager and the assessors’ report is one of a number of things they have to take into consideration.

Agree. And in addition, disability discrimination is addressed by the Equality Act 2010. Qualifying for PIP is irrelevant.