Page 10 | PIP | Mumsnet

Ostagazuzulum · 2023-12-06T23:28:08+00:00

I know this is going to be controversial. That's not my intention. I want to stress that I'm not having a go at anyone who gets benefits. I'm just curious about pip and how it's justified. One of my friends today has told me that they were recently approved for pip in higher scale. Going to be getting around £700 a month apparently. She doesn't claim any other benefits. She has fibromyalgia. Her and her husband both have middle management full time jobs earning around £80k per year between the pair of them. They own their own home and she's very open about having around £12k in savings. Three children all of school age. They're intending on using the money for holidays mostly. I'm just baffled how it's justified. She definitely suffers with the condition, can sometimes struggle with mobility. and you can see she's in pain. But what's the purpose of pip? Her condition isn't incurring any extra costs and isn't being spent on day to day help. Why do we have it for those circumstances?

EachandEveryone · 07/12/2023 07:53

Isnt the form online now? I found that much easier to fill in.

MumblesParty · 07/12/2023 07:50

C0ldasIc3 · 07/12/2023 07:35

But additional costs can be huge and push somebody on an ok salary into struggling. The costs ripple out massively before you even look at loss of earnings for carers.And the whole point of disability support is to make things equal ie somebody in an ok salary should not be impacted and held back more than somebody on an equal salary.

Yeah but things aren’t equal are they, because if they were, then Richard Branson would be obliged to give me some of his money! It seems bizarre for governments to say that things need to be equal, but then allow many inequalities to exist.

And what about equality between the people who get PIP? If someone on minimum wage gets PIP, it might make them equal to someone else on minimum wage who doesn’t have a disability. But it doesn’t take them anywhere near Rishi Sunak’s family. If the billionaires didn’t claim their PIP, then there’d be more in the pot for the minimum wagers. So equality is nowhere near achieved. If it was means tested there’d be more money available for the people who would really notice it.

TomeTome · 07/12/2023 07:41

I think it’s a bit like saying “shouldn’t education be means tested”?

Willyoujustbequiet · 07/12/2023 07:37

Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:14

It's not about my friend. She was a general example of what prompted me to wonder about it.

Does he claim it?? Although it's not means tested surely there must be a cap off??? If you have millions in bank how can you justify taking £600 a month off taxpayer?

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He did yes for his disabled son who I believe has now sadly died.

There is no cap.

I don't believe it should be means tested. I mean they've just given hundreds to millionaire pensioners afterall. However I do feel that a person in his position was morally wrong to claim it. Help should be targeted at those who need it.

C0ldasIc3 · 07/12/2023 07:35

But additional costs can be huge and push somebody on an ok salary into struggling. The costs ripple out massively before you even look at loss of earnings for carers.And the whole point of disability support is to make things equal ie somebody in an ok salary should not be impacted and held back more than somebody on an equal salary.

MumblesParty · 07/12/2023 07:30

TigerRag · 07/12/2023 07:22

But where would you draw the line? Many of us find that pip doesn't actually cover our costs.

And no pip means things like no blue badge for certain people, no discounted tickets, etc.

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Well everything that is means tested has a line drawn doesn’t it. Like child benefit. It wouldn’t be impossible to agree a certain income above which it is deemed that you don’t need state assistance. Would you be happy for Rishi Sunak’s billionaire wife to get some of your taxes to put towards her heating bill if she had a qualifying health condition? Especially if it meant there was less available for someone with the same condition who earned minimum wage?

LakieLady · 07/12/2023 07:23

I work in welfare rights. Even with years of experience, my team only has a success rate of around 40-45% when it comes to PIP applications. But we appeal almost every refusal and have a success rate in excess of 98% at appeals.

If PIP was easy to get, our success rate at appeals would be much lower. More than half our applications wouldn't be wrongly refused. And it makes me wonder how many people who don't appeal because they don't know how or find the process too daunting would actually succeed if they appealed and if they had help from a benefits specialist.

TigerRag · 07/12/2023 07:22

MumblesParty · 07/12/2023 00:44

It’s insane that PIP isn’t means tested. All state benefits should be means tested. We shouldn’t be giving public money to people who don’t need it. And it’s all very well saying it levels things up, so the person claiming PIP isn’t disadvantaged by their disability, but if they’re a multi millionaire shouldn’t they be doing a bit of levelling up themselves to help poor people?!

But where would you draw the line? Many of us find that pip doesn't actually cover our costs.

And no pip means things like no blue badge for certain people, no discounted tickets, etc.

LakieLady · 07/12/2023 07:02

Sorry, that should have read "2 descriptors for mobility".

LakieLady · 07/12/2023 07:01

Floralsofa · 06/12/2023 23:41

If she has enhanced rate PIP for mobility she must have said she is restricted to mobilising 1-20m or less on the majority of days, and if she has enhanced for daily living needs, assistance to cook, wash and dress. Either it's pretty evident in her presentation or she's a fibber

Edited

Nonsense. There are 2 descriptors for PIP, only one relates to the ability to walk, the other relates to the ability to plan and follow a journey.

PIP regs also specify that you must be able to do an activity safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly, and within a reasonable time period, so if someone gets panic attacks when out alone, they may not meet the "safely" test for planning and following a journey, or if they can only walk slowly, or walk the relevant distance once and are then too knackered to do it again for a couple of days, they'll get awarded points.

decionsdecisions62 · 07/12/2023 07:01

@Pussygaloregalapagos my daughter ended up with horrendous agoraphobia at 15. It sounds like your tone is mocking to me. In fact they don't end up spending less because they are desperately trying to have some sort of life. So she had to get a hairdresser that would come to the house ( more expensive) , she bought clothes on line to fit in with friends, when slightly better she still had to pay for taxi as couldn't walk around the streets.

In terms of the op not being judgemental that is absolutely bollocks. Of course you are. Perhaps your friend is incontinent. Are you so egotistical that you know everything about her life? It's envy and you need to let it go.

TomeTome · 07/12/2023 07:01

@Drdoomish well then she could do it every other day, or every third day. In time it will be done. Once done assuming she gets the award (which is likely given your description) then she will be able to use that money to make her life easier.

Drdoomish · 07/12/2023 06:52

If only it were that easy @TomeTome

Answering just two questions means a day's worth of energy used up. The energy needed for the brain processing means that she'll need to rest up significantly.

Would you like a whole month not seeing people or going out just to complete a form? And then x number of months after to regain the energy back from having to use all the brain power?

Had I not watched my friend endure this over many many years, I wouldn't have believed it either.

TomeTome · 07/12/2023 06:44

@Drdoomish its not impossible to just answer a few questions a day and get through the form.

TomeTome · 07/12/2023 06:41

@Ostagazuzulum really the clue to “what it’s for” is in the name. It’s a personal independence payment and is used to redress the balance for people whose life is more expensive due to disability. It’s nothing to do with how much you earn. It’s a good way of getting support to the point it’s actually used rather than blanket provision

Drdoomish · 07/12/2023 06:38

Domino20 · 07/12/2023 00:14

There's a widespread policy to refuse applicants on intital application. As much as it would tax your friend to do so, she really will stand a better chance having a mandatory reconsideration.

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That's what I discovered too. And told her.

She just hasn't got the energy in her to reapply. She'd rather cope short term with the struggle and have a limited life than expend at least another month's worth of energy and knock her health back doing so. She has no reserves in the tank for another year of poor health trying to get back to where she was health-wise before the application.

Potentialmadcatlady · 07/12/2023 06:24

Taxis
Extra Heat
Constant travel to hospital appts
Car parking charges
Special Shoes
Extra Washing
Specialist Food
Extra hot water
Constant supervision
Phone
Extra Clothing

Thats the most basic start of a list.. I can’t be bothered doing anymore… Fed up having to justify my families existence.
It isn’t disabled top trumps or a race to the bottom or the top.

TomeTome · 07/12/2023 06:23

Floralsofa · 07/12/2023 00:08

If due to a physical condition on the majority of days you must be unable to walk more than 20m reliably, timely and repeatedly (for enhanced)

You can however get mobility based on other conditions such as learning disability, seizures etc where you can physically walk without restriction, but would be vulnerable when out alone, it comes under a different descriptor.

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So basically as I said, you CAN get this level of benefit and still be able to walk 20m.

Original poster

Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:19

DaðiFreyrstrexarms · 07/12/2023 01:12

The OP, and some of the comments here, have made my stomach utterly sink. I get comments all the time from people who seem to think I'm not actually that disabled. I'm not going into it here, I'm quite riled. But the ableism in some of these comments is vile. It is absolutely none of any of yours business what is or isn't on someone else's PIP claim. Its none of your business why we might qualify. And our conditions are absolutely not up for speculation by you, who are neither experts on our conditions, or living in our bodies. How bloody insulting.

I'm so sorry you've taken it completely in the wrong context. There's no judgement on you. I can answer for disablist comments but mine weren't intended that way.

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autienotnaughty · 07/12/2023 06:18

Whilst I agree that it shouldn't be means tested I do feel the people who are financially rich shouldn't claim it just because they can.

Saying that I am working class, can only work part time due to my disability and I tried to apply for pip. I identified I scored 12. Had an interview that was heavily managed by the assessor, she asked for my best day and when I asked if I could talk about my worst day she interrupted and said I'd already told her (I hadn't) needless to say I didn't get it . I wish I'd appealed but at the time i found the whole thing so draining.

I assume your friend must suffer significantly and doesn't know what the future holds for her.

Original poster

Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:16

jm9138 · 07/12/2023 00:20

I don't claim it (I have RA) but my friend with spondyloarthritis as well as epilepsy does. I have thought of claiming (no I don't need the money) as I am in constant pain, have put on loads of weight because I cannot move and am just knackered to the point it has severely affected my ability to work for 18 months. So why have I not claimed? I guess I am a 'well it is not that bad' sort of person even when it is bloody awful and in addition don't need some interrogation from some disinterested administrator (not putting them down, but it must be a dull job). Interestingly I have never claimed any benefit (well, child benefit for a few years almost 20 years ago) but I would not feel bad claiming. I view it as I have paid at least £1 million in tax over my working life and honestly, I don't think I will be claiming much of my pension. At least 10% of this tax is national insurance and part of this insurance is as I see it a pay out for if my health takes a tumble. I don't view it any differently than my private life insurance policy. What would I spend it on? Nothing specific, but it might enable me to just work a little less which would really help.

So don't be baffled how it is justified. Unless you think it is fair that some people pay tax all their lives and never claim anything even when they could do with some support because it should only go to the absolutely destitute. I would agree with you if that is what you think, provided they massively cut taxes accordingly. But I quite like the safety net of not having to be out on the street or unable to get out of bed before I get help so happy to pay the tax.

This is a great answer in helping me understand it. I'm same, I have chronic conditions but would never have thought previously about it.thank you

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Potentialmadcatlady · 07/12/2023 06:16

Drdoomish · 06/12/2023 23:51

How did she manage to get it? My friend has ME. Took her ages and over a month's worth of her energy (so didn't go out) researching what gave her the best chance at being successful at getting PIP.

I attended her interview with her. She was honest. She shared his limiting her life is. (E.g. she needs a 2 hour rest after a 10 min shower)

She didn't get PIP. The report the decision was based on was incorrect (e.g. she attended the interview alone). She didn't have energy to go through the process again and fight the incorrect decision, due to her disability. She wouldn't let me try on her behalf, as that would still take it out of her.

She's existing on a tiny amount, as she's too ill to work. She has high outgoings from the diet costs of improving her ME and a higher fuel cost to make her ME tolerable. I give her money most months to make up her short fall.

So I ask again, how did she succeed in getting the payment? I'm all ears.

Th only way is to appeal and take it tribunal. Not sure of current stats but the number of successful appeals is very high.
Anyone who thinks PIP is easy to get hasn’t gone through the process.

Original poster

Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:14

Willyoujustbequiet · 07/12/2023 00:18

To the OP

If a millionaire like David Cameron is entitled to claim then I really wouldn't dwell on your friend.

It's not about my friend. She was a general example of what prompted me to wonder about it.

Does he claim it?? Although it's not means tested surely there must be a cap off??? If you have millions in bank how can you justify taking £600 a month off taxpayer?

OP posts:

Original poster

Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:11

MatildaTheCat · 07/12/2023 00:06

To @Ostagazuzulum youd be better off directing your attention to the tax evaders who are depriving our country of resources for our social welfare.

and absolutely yes to the pp who said they never mention their awards to anyone for fear of judgement.

@Ostagazuzulum I look pretty bloody good mainly. I’m also in continuous pain. I take more medication than I can keep track of and I pace my activities severely so yes, I do x but at the expense of y and z that you can do without thought. That’s expensive as I need the heating on more. I have to pay for private therapies and nutritious meals that are quick and easy to make. And so many other items that make a difference.

Im still in pain. I will still need expensive state care in the future but for now they are helping me to stay as well and independent as possible. Think of that when you judge your friend.

I'm not judging her at all. I think I've explained myself. If you took away your judgmental remarks towards me, your answer was actually really interesting and explains it well.

I begrudge no one disability. I don't think anyone can fudge their way through pip assessment by sounds of it.

The tax evaders - 100% judge them.

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Original poster

Ostagazuzulum · 07/12/2023 06:08

Drdoomish · 06/12/2023 23:51

How did she manage to get it? My friend has ME. Took her ages and over a month's worth of her energy (so didn't go out) researching what gave her the best chance at being successful at getting PIP.

I attended her interview with her. She was honest. She shared his limiting her life is. (E.g. she needs a 2 hour rest after a 10 min shower)

She didn't get PIP. The report the decision was based on was incorrect (e.g. she attended the interview alone). She didn't have energy to go through the process again and fight the incorrect decision, due to her disability. She wouldn't let me try on her behalf, as that would still take it out of her.

She's existing on a tiny amount, as she's too ill to work. She has high outgoings from the diet costs of improving her ME and a higher fuel cost to make her ME tolerable. I give her money most months to make up her short fall.

So I ask again, how did she succeed in getting the payment? I'm all ears.

My friends son has gone through legal action to a tribunal or something to get it. His condition is really restrictive. I don't see how they could deny it to him. It seems very hit and miss who gets it.

OP posts: