To ask about being fired from public sector

That's a shame. I suppose it depends on the make up of your HR team. We're big enough that we have a specialist ER team, of which I am one, so it's our entire job to support with things like this.

To paraphrase the old saying, 95% of people come to work and don't cause any problems. 5% cause chaos and you'll spend 95% of your time trying to deal with that 5%.

You are spot on!

We'd expect the manager to have read the relevant policies but we'd then talk through the nitty gritty and assign a caseworker.

No, none of this. I'd say largely due to lack of staff. The process is effectively overseen by a senior HR person who will liaise with my senior manager - still not much help to me in the middle doing the donkey work!

We had an excellent person with sole responsibility for employee matters, complaints, disciplinary etc - he was very helpful but left. He'd both explain the process but also give practical advice about dos and don'ts as the process was ongoing.

I'm pleased you got training and mentoring. It's certainly more than our managers get.

I'm not sure why your HR team couldn't have supported you to understand the processes. We'd expect the manager to have read the relevant policies but we'd then talk through the nitty gritty and assign a caseworker.

To paraphrase the old saying, 95% of people come to work and don't cause any problems. 5% cause chaos and you'll spend 95% of your time trying to deal with that 5%.

Oops...

Was reasonably experienced

What I really needed was more guidance on the whole disciplinary & sanction process, and how to continue to manage a team when one or more members were going through such a process.

The unreasonable part is being expected to deal with all of this without support.

Personally I'd like to see managers receive thorough training and coaching once they get promoted into a line management role but that's a whole other argument.

I actually did get this, in my area. I had a coach / mentor for 9 months, lots of training.

I'd also managed people in other roles & sectors across my career so was rea
Actually,

I have to say I agree. Being good at your particular specialism doesn't guarantee that you'll also be a good people manager.

Combine that with a lack of training and support from higher management and you have a recipe for disaster.

Part of the problem is that (unwise) managers in the public sector prioritise years of experience over qualities, attitude, strengths or leadership potential which is why people often get promoted above their capabilities - in my experience the biggest problem people are in roles that are 1- 2 pay grades above where they should be.

It is also why terrible people just churn around the system getting job after job despite being useless.

I had a lecturer at University who was absolutely pitiful and devious... he took credit for a colleague's research and passed it off as his own (and got away with it!).

30 years later, I've drove my DS to an open day at my old Uni. I get talking to someone who turns out is responsible for planning the open day. I congratulate him and we talk some more. It turns out he's a senior lecturer in my old discipline, slightly after my time. We start to go through some names of lecturers who were around when I was an undergraduate. I eventually name this problematic lecturer, the person I'm speaking to goes visibly pale. We then have a cathartic 30 minutes while he unloads all the dreadful things this lecturer went on to do during the remainder of his career. Turns out the lecturer had only just retired. We both can't believe how he ever lasted.

I knew someone who got fired during his probation for cancelling 9am lectures regularly when he couldn't be bothered to get up. Punching people, smoking in the lab (in 2010!), leaving bottles of hydrofluoric acid under your desk, refusing to work with women and being drunk at 11am every day weren't enough to get rid of various professors over the years. I did see a few quiet underperformers being given all the student support admin roles until they quit in despair though, and a lot of people being made redundant in reshuffles. Normally the ones who taught the vital introductory 1st year courses and actually knew what the machines in the lab did...

I fired someone in the civil service, this person had been performing badly for years but was just moved from team to team. From PIP through to employment tribunal it was an 18th month unending nightmare. HR were utterly clueless and gave us so much wrong advice about process it caused huge problems. She raised a grievance against everyone she could and I spent weeks either being investigated or contributing to other people’s investigations. The investigator told us she was keen to deliver a ‘balanced’ report which meant setting out faults on both sides, so everyone trying their best on this crappy situation had their character called into question.

the employment tribunal, after months of prep, backed our decision. I’m never bothering again. It’s not worth the mental toll.

I feel your pain OP. I worked in the private sector for 25 years. The deadlines became ridiculously insane and everyone IMO ended up hating working there!

One of my best friends has worked in the public sector for the same years. The stories she's told...OMG...cosseted doesn't begin to describe it!

But she hates it. There is just no development or inclination, it's just statis as far as she's concerned, and she desperately wants to leave, even though she has a really good salary.

Unfortunately they seem to be two absolute extremes and each one has their problems.

I've worked in HE for a long, long time. To get sacked you basically need to murder one of your colleagues and even then, depending on how popular your victim was, you might only get shuffled to a different department...

Yep!

This exactly. I've had staff in my teams who would do no work, complain that I didn't like them more than other team members, put in constant complaints about people, and take months off. Getting rid of them took me years and it only happened in the end because I said it was negatively impacting my mental health and they went or I did. The university still paid them to go though

And HR we're completely useless at all stages

I'm not convinced of this, I work in HE and for all the stuff they put out about difference, diversity and inclusivity, in only the last week I have witnessed covert racism and homophobia. What HEIs say they stand for and goes on are two different things. Yes I reported both through the channels set up for such things, but will anything happen? No.

In education, it’s often the case that experienced means expensive and therefore a target to be managed out.

I'd say the difficulty there is how much of a proactive approach the organisation lets HR take.

Certainly in my organisation the expectation is very much that line managers do the day to day people management and would only receive more hands on HR support, e.g., a caseworker rather than one off advice, once things are at the formal stages.

That's a lot of pressure to put on managers who may not have the skills, experience or time to do this and may not be adequately supported by their own management.

Personally I'd like to see managers receive thorough training and coaching once they get promoted into a line management role but that's a whole other argument.

One was asked to leave and he was gone by the end of the week

That's not possible without a) due process being followed and b) a settlement reached.

Yes, I work in HE and I have seen people get sacked. One was asked to leave and he was gone by the end of the week and the other was strongly advised to take voluntary severance before capability kicked in.

It's not easy though and lots of not very good people end up staying in relatively well paid jobs.

@LemonGelato

I agree very much with your points.

Even with all the challenges I've had, I'd still rather work in the public sector than private.

I saw, and experienced, brutal treatment of women, especially around maternity leave & return to work. Even in a company I otherwise really liked.

I do agree in principle with the public sector 'second chance' approach. I had someone on my team who was extraordinarily difficult to manage. I worked very hard to understand the dynamic at play and managed to work with her to address challenges she had while being clear on my expectations. She's like a different person now, and I don't even think of the past challenging behaviour.

I worked in the civil service. I sacked two people for incompetence (went onto performance management and then dismissed when their work didn’t improve) and one for taking the piss - claiming to have been in the office when we knew she hadn’t from the pass system, and working from home when her laptop wasn’t logged on. Oh and I sacked another one for fraud - he falsified his claims when he was travelling. I’ve also known people lose their jobs when they have failed security clearance, and have seen senior people dismissed for BHD. So it does happen.

In the public sector, some of the reason is it has a culture of giving people 2nd chances for things (which isn't always a bad thing but it can go too far, for too long). There is a grievance culture in the public sector - counter claims against managers of bullying is just par for the course when managing performance and that slows things down too. Some of it is fear by management at all levels of employment tribunals - especially for claims of discrimination which can get a lot of local negative publicity. Local Authorities are very very scared of being accused of racism for example.

Excellent points.

The union issue complicates matters yes, but it's not just that. It's the attempt at utter fairness & opportunities to address issues (theoretically commendable) which allow basket cases chance after chance to game the system.

One of the people I was dealing with knew well how it worked. He'd have a stressful few weeks going through the process, get given a sanction; which in theory he'd 12 months to address & then would happily sit back & do FA for 11.5 months. Meanwhile I'd have to meet him, document everything, put up with his shit ... I was the one who really felt the effect of the sanction, not him.

I think line managers need to take responsibility too. It's no good not addressing the problem for months/years on end and then suddenly deciding the person needs to go. By that point it's much harder to exit them, especially for low level performance/conduct matters

I'm in HE, Ireland. So processes might be different.

We have overall, a reasonably good HR team.

But such limited support in terms of managing performance issues before they become problematic.

I line manage 8 people. I have learnt over 7 years in the role how to work with people's strengths, manage areas for development - and to have honest conversations (there is way too little of that in my workplace). Finally I'm seeing results.

But HR don't act in a proactive or preemptive way in my opinion. They wait for the shit to hit the fan, and then are only interested in the process.

That being said, I've had the misfortune to be involved as a manager in several complicated processes. And I do admire their tenacity at working through each cumbersome stage & the challenges / roadblocks that the employee (and union) puts in their way.