AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

They’re not more important than children. People on here would rather a child was in danger because some adult women might be ridiculous enough to think a pre pubescent child is a pervert.

Yes, my DD is keenly aware of time. She's very anxious and has to forward plan everything to the minute to feel more in control of the unpredictable world around her. Going swimming would involve lots of questions from her days in advance about timings and a lot of anxiety on the day about being ready on time.

The unexpected is what causes her stress and can trigger a meltdown. Boys in female changing areas for instance would be a good example.

If theres mixed changing rooms id have waited. But. My DGS age 12 has adhd autism etc. he couldn't change alone. He is similar mental age to a 7 year old. I take him in womens changing area but find a cubicle. Hes too at risk being younger than his years, he would just stand there forever. Was there cubicles in women's changing area?

You tagged me, why do that if you weren't referring to me?

People tend to advocate for issues that they have a connection with. I advocate for disabled people all the time because I know disabled people. If disabled people are 25% of the population, that's a lot of aware people who can advocate for them.

I mean, I never advocate for people with MS because I don't know anyone with MS and aren't vested in that cause. Hopefully it stays that way. Yet plenty of people do and give their time to advocate for that.

@sollenwir

She hasn’t needed to previously because facilities were available.

Following this experience at a busier time point (which was unexpected), I am sure she will seek support to prevent the same scenario happening again.

Needing and using reasonable adjustments isn’t ‘letting autism be an excuse’ ffs. No more than my using a wheelchair is letting not being able to walk’ be an excuse.

@sollenwir I think you are being bullish and tone deaf. This child may never have the capacity to do the things described, kindness is not what I was talking about. Honestly it’s excruciating reading the righteous drilling down on a mother of a disabled child who asked for help thinking about a situation she wanted to manage better. Grim. Carers are predominantly women. Untrained, unemployed and unappreciated women who do not choose their lives. You are not helping.

I was not referring to you specifically @sollenwir

I was pointing out that while men and women are very outspoken regarding their own space and need for it, they do not make space for disabled people nor advocate for them - despite them being 25% of the population.

If there was advocacy by able bodied on behalf of disabled people this would lead to stronger preservation of rights for all, but mostly there is complacency.

I feel for your wife. This is why access to family rooms is important too, so your wife can feel comfortable getting fully undressed in private.

I used to take six kids from infant upwards swimming and took them into the family rooms. We could all just get changed and I knew they were all contained and couldn't run out of the changing rooms. If a family room wasn't available, we stayed in the water waiting for an opening. It made it so much easier to have a private and contained space.

Leisure centre is at fault. Not the OP.

Both are at fault.
Also, has OP ever asked the leisure centre to give her more support?

To be honest, your ‘fannying about under a towel’ phrase wasn’t a lot better than @Theoriginalmrscillianmurphy saying getting your baps out.

My wife has emotional trauma and HS- what looks to you like ‘fannying around’ is actually her going through an enormous amount of stress, anxiety and pain in order to take her kids swimming (she has to wear a bra and a tshirt and shorts to swim so there is a lot of ‘fannying around’ getting it all on and off!)

He's still a male in a female space, it doesn't matter if he's the kindest male on the planet. We're still sending the message that males can enter female spaces. They can't.

@LolaSmiles

From my point of view I would have considered this situation an emergency.

This is to say going out with my DS is like going out with an unexploded bomb that is ticking.

You know he is liable to blow up - in a positive or negative way - depending on environmental stimuli, and you try to keep everything on an even keel to avoid either major hyperactivity and excitement or extreme distress.

The change in OP’s son’s routine in terms of not being able to access his normal changing space + the sensory issues with being dripping wet + sensory/stress issues with queuing all equals to me 💥💥💥

So I would have been doing the same as OP looking for the quietest available space to get the kids washed quickly and out of there.

Again, I am not saying it is acceptable for all boys under the age of 18 to be in women’s changing rooms. Not at all.

What I’ve said consistently, is that this is still a young child - not an adolescent, 2 months beyond the cut off point for him to be in a women’s changing room. And it was a situation brought about by the leisure centre bunging baby changes in disabled space. And not taking into account the huge number of classes going on and the pressure this would place on changing facilities.

To be clear, OP had picked a suitable leisure centre with facilities and used them before, but not at the time when so many classes were on - she didn’t anticipate her son’s space being taken away.

Mothers and fathers with babies are not disabled. They can perfectly well change their babies in the single sex space - provided the baby changers are moved to there.

If these people had not been cluttering up disabled space in the first place then OP and her son would not have been displaced.

Leisure centre is at fault. Not the OP.

To be honest @LolaSmiles while I understand your concern the sort of child that needs help to this level is really unlikely to develop into the sort of man you describe.

I think sometimes it’s worth remembering who and what situation you are talking about.

Then we wonder why some men struggle with consent issues while the parents say they just don't know what happened for them to be that way.
I agree with this.
Speaking generally, many people seem surprised that so many men ignore boundaries, have issues with consent, feel entitled to take over spaces or dominate spaces, feel entitled to tell women to get over their feelings of being uncomfortable.

But then they don't seem to connect the dots between the behaviour, conduct and standards they set for their boys e.g. it's fine for boys to 'tease' girls, it's fine for boys to dominate play, it's fine for boys to physically take over more space and claim more space in play spaces, it's fine for boys to be in female single sex spaces beyond their younger years and their female pre-teen peers should accept it, it's the role of female peers to turn away or modify their changing if they're not happy about a male peer in their space etc.

The male pattern behaviours many people rightly have an issue with (including the behaviour patterns that lead to issues in male single sex spaces) don't suddenly appear at 18.

We do our boys a disservice if we expect them to learn one set of values about respect, consent, privacy and dignity if our actions and words aren't modelling this.

If anything ds understands the passage of time too well which creates its own issues at times!

sweeping generalisations don’t help anyone. As ds reception teacher said to me “when you have met one person with autism you have met one person with autism”

sterotypes and generalisations lead to one size fits all support which helps very few.

The child in question though is described by the OP as

9 and has multiple additional needs including ADHD, ASD and some physical disabilities which means he struggles to change himself.

And isn’t “quite capable of queuing”. Generalising doesn’t help really whichever way you spin it. The majority of autistic people aren’t able to do a lot of things that able verbal autistics can they aren’t very visible. Some of that is because nobody prioritises their access to the world.

Please don't make sweeping statements about autistic people like they're all the same.

My autistic DD is quite capable of queuing and does so by herself on a daily basis - to get on the bus, to get lunch, at checkouts.

And what on earth are you talking about, autistic people can't comprehend the passage of time?!

Yes. I was one of them as a child.

I remember being out with my dad aged about 5 and refusing to go in the men's toilets with him because 'I'm not a man, I'm not allowed to.' On the verge of meltdown about it because I really needed to go.

He didn't drag me into the men's despite my distress. He also didn't go into the women's. He asked a woman going in there with her own daughter if she'd mind keeping an eye out for me.

(For the avoidance of any doubt, I'm not trying to claim this is analogous to OP's situation - I didn't need any assistance with toileting, for a start. I'm reflecting on autistic children and rule-following re: spaces.)

Speak to the pool managers - there will be lots of other people in similar situations.

Blow them a kiss? Deliberately provocative to other pool users then.

Why not just accompany your DS into the men's changing room?

Not to mention the message it sends the son that who cares about other people, it's all about what I want. And the message that who cares about women's privacy and comfort if it doesn't suit me. Then we wonder why some men struggle with consent issues while the parents say they just don't know what happened for them to be that way.

Agreed, the 6 year old isn't really an issue, it's the assertion of 'years to come' - other females can and will complain, and if the frontline facility staff do nothing they'll take it higher until something happens. Don't be that selfish person who cannot follow simple rules, and who gives lots of other people extra work.

So females are always less important than males?