AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

@SnowflakeSparkles

It clearly did need to be said. The OP was asked by the teenager to leave and she didn’t leave. People in this thread are happily and loudly cheering that they take their older boys in the women’s changing room, where girls the same age as the boys will be changing and shouldn’t have to stand naked in front of their peers.

It does need to be said when so many mothers of boys seem to think their boys trump women and young girl’s rights to privacy.

For the record I definitely do not think you should stay home. Personally as I said in a previous post - if I was queuing for a family room I'd happily let OP go before me, and I think OP should ask if they can hold a room for her after the time of her son's lesson so they can guarantee there is one available. I don't like that OP didn't even think to ask staff if there was an alternative private space for her to use before taking her son into the women's changing rooms. I would absolutely call for more accommodations for disabled families such as this, but not at the cost of making women's facilities mixed I'm afraid - the pool centre was responsible for accommodating OP, not a teenage girl who was uncomfortable

I mean you could just take the situation at face value, note that at perhaps the age of 9 years old mum has only just realised he no longer fits in the little child category and acknowledge there's no need to say things that you don't even realise sound weird and disjointed outside of the familiar ground of FWR discussions of "no males in female spaces".

Because you're an adult. I would have been mortified as a child if there was a boy of my own age somewhere where he could see me naked.

Really selfish OP.

People frequently suggest that we should stay at home because accommodating us is too awkward.

I think you did your best @JustKeepSwimmingAlong the criticism of mothers behaviour and choices is always a burden but it is so much worse when your child is disabled. Any Tom Dick or Harry, will have a tip and opinion they’d like to share. My child was two when someone first had the bright idea to ask if we’d ever thought about what would happen when we couldn’t care for him any more. TWO. Such gems as “well he’ll have to learn to dress himself eventually” or the colossally helpful “he’ll eat when he’s hungry” or “have you tried a bedtime routine” come thick and fast. At around nine or ten chubby cheeks and a beaming smile disappear and suddenly you aren’t welcome at playgrounds and soft play or in the baby section in toy shops. People don’t smile when you play or try to sit on their lap with a book. Overnight everything changes and parents watch their child who is baffled and hurt and try to explain the inexplicable.

You must make sure he isn’t in the female changing areas. Keep him safe and know that there are many many people who will help if they can.

Can you not say "terf threads" please?

Exactly this 👏

@Leah5678

Youre continuing to go on about the language you disagree with but refuse or answer what language should be used.

What language can we use to say that boys should not be sitting where young girls and women are naked?

I think it's actually worse than that, because here we are discussing the reasons why a 9 year old boy shouldn't be in the women's changing rooms but nobody is claiming that the 9 year old in question isn't a boy.

So we could, and most likely do, end up with a scenario where a 9 year old boy with additional needs is not allowed to get changed in the women's changing rooms with his mother, but a male of any age without any particular additional needs who believes they identify as female is allowed into those spaces, simply by saying that they are not a boy/man.

As I said above, the rule should be no males above a certain age in women's spaces for any reason whatsoever, and people with particular needs should be provided for, e.g. there should be enough family rooms where male children can get changed with their mothers.

@SnowflakeSparkles

So how would you say that he is too old and no older boys should be allowed in the female changing rooms? What wording would make that a valid point, even if you disagree with the point, if this were debate class and you were tasked with arguing this side, what wording would you use?

Boys should not be in the women’s changing room. A teenage girl had to speak up because she was confronted with a boy sitting there, in her safe space to be naked. There he was.

What wording are we allowed to use to say he shouldn’t be there?

Yes, I agree with this.

There are a number of women who need to be able to get changed in an area which is guaranteed to be free from male strangers.

Their needs trump the feelings of women who don't mind getting changed in the presence of male strangers, but don't actually need to get changed in the presence of male strangers.

As long as there are any women who aren't OK with male people in their changing spaces, there should be no male people in women's changing spaces.

The only people who actually need to get changed in the presence of someone of the opposite sex are those who are either caring for or being cared for by someone of the opposite sex, i.e. not a stranger. Those people need family changing spaces and/or accessible changing spaces.

@Leah5678
Again, how do we say it without saying “no boys in female spaces.”

How would you word it to avoid using any of the words used in the trans debate?

This is about a woman taking an actual real live boy into the female changing. We are saying no, you can’t take a boy into the female changing. And yes, that is also said on trans discussions but how else is it meant to be said?

Is it now just completely invalid because it may or may not be applied in the trans debate? Are we just no longer allowed to tell people that their older sons cannot come in? Because we have to use the same words as other debates?

The question you’re poking at is what do you define as a woman, which is the remit of all the trans threads but is a moot point here. This is about biological male children, who identify as biological males, and whether or not they should be entitled to access female spaces with their mum. There is no debate about whether or not this boy is a “woman” and should therefore have access to female spaces

That's fundamentally not true. The entire premise of the gender critical movement is that it matters not how one identifies and therefore there is absolutely no difference between a man who identifies as a man and a man who identifies as a woman. The same single argument is exactly thus - males do not belong in female spaces.

I'll reiterate again, I have never stated my position against this statement and the "trans debate" on this thread as it is not about that. But I don't see how people cannot see the clear influence of the large gender critical presence on MN, and yes to me it is very unnecessary to use such rhetoric on this thread.

Why do I think that when "it doesn't matter what the bloody reason is"? I just find the entire way trans women are spoken about by gender critical people dehumanising and then when you hear the same lines being said toward a 9 year old child with SEN who has no agency in the situation. It feels wrong and cruel and I am entitled to my opinion just as everyone else is.

The other poster chiming in with you accused me of posting on 'trans threads', go and check my post history, I have never done that so the only gaslighting is coming from your side - both of you are driving your own agendas here. Calling them 'transgenders' is hardly respectful so don't use them as a shield for your utter nonsense.

Yes it absolutely should take a collective of people to decide what is generally appropriate but when it comes to deciding who is permitted to see other women's naked bodies no. You don't get to consent for other women. The teenage girl speaking up did not want a boy seeing her changing and you thinking she should tolerate it does not provide consent on her behalf, so frankly it doesn't matter at all what you think (just as actually it doesn't matter that I don't think she should have to change around a 9 year old if it turned out she didn't mind after all, but she did)

I can respect this explanation

I can't respect other users who try to deny their argument has anything to do with transgenders despite using the exact terminology seen on trans threads and then gaslight anyone who points it out

@SnowflakeSparkles

But that’s exactly what already happened. A very large collective decided that women deserved protection under the equality act, and that women deserve sex segregated spaces which are protected by law. It’s not just me disagreeing with you and telling you that my opinion is right and yours is wrong. The law disagrees with you. The collective group of women disagree with you. Society has already decided what is acceptable, and your son in a female space has been deemed unacceptable. Female spaces are for females, not your son. This has been litigated. You have lost. Your son has to use his own space or a mixed family space. He has no place in a female only space.

You are the one here who is disregarding and disrespecting what society and the law have decided. You are the one stamping and saying that you have a son so you will do as you please. I’m not the problem here.

The problem with that is that women have never, ever been asked whether we consent to our single sex spaces being made mixed sex.

Sirzy
For whatever reason some posters weren't happy with an interesting and robust discussion where women with a range of views discussed privacy and dignity of children having access to single sex spaces, the importance of boundaries for our male and female children, the need to better provision for family and accessible changing, and the responsibility of parents to choose venues that have appropriate changing facilities if they require mixed sex changing arrangements.

This line of argument is just kind of a way of saying "I don't care if anyone disagrees with me I am right and that's it" though isn't it.

I could start up a thread about how no bananas should be sold in supermarkets because of x reason.

And then when people say, but that's really silly I don't agree with x reason, I can't just say "but YOU don't speak for all women and you don't get to make that decision on behalf of all women".

Well no, but it's a 2 way street and it takes a collective of people to decide what communities and societies deem appropriate.

How old is the child? Most people wouldn’t bat an eyelid at a 4 year old, but a 9 year old is a completely different situation.

How has this ended up being about trans people when that literally has nothing to do with the thread, or the discussion at all until one poster decided to start trying to read meaning into posts that wasn’t there!

defending women’s spaces for women isn’t part of any bigger agenda than ensuring women have safe spaces. It really shouldn’t be complicated

Where have i suggested that?