AIBU to take my son into the female changing room?

I've read this thread the first 200 times it was posted, yes.
As I say you do what you think and so will I👍🏻

But society has collectively decided that it isn't appropriate to force females to be naked in front of older male children. We've done that bit already.

What you then don't have the right to do is to unilaterally decide that because the decision on what is appropriate doesn't suit your individual needs that the collective needs of those who have an entitlement to that space don't matter. Women and girls deserve to have a comfortable, safe space where they can retain their dignity.

Disabled people and families have needs, which I appreciate. However, those needs don't overrule the entitlement to not be naked in front of men and boys on the verge of puberty.

I’d have been annoyed at a 9 year old boy being there and possibly would have challenged you too OP. I can’t tell from looking if a boy is ND and even if he is I’d have expected you to wait for the group changing area.

The teenage girl was right to speak up and you’ve said you won’t do it again which I hope you stick to.

Well in the good news fishfingers don’t need to change they just are what they are.

I do love that dd wants to be a mermaid.

What a weird turn this thread took though. Fighting over if it’s about trans or not. Which it’s not as op clarified her son is a fish finger god damn it!!

Indeed. No male bodies in female spaces.

My niece struggles enough having to change for swimming lessons in a group with only other girls, she definitely wouldn’t be happy to have boys there too.

My son wouldn’t be comfortable seeing girls getting changed or them seeing him.

My repeated point on this thread is simply to ask that people please remember disabled women and mothers of disabled sons exist. We don’t want to erode anyone’s rights, we just want facilities that allow us to go where everyone else goes.

@Sux2buthen

Have you read this thread? Two posters on here are vehemently defending their opinion that everyone saying the boy shouldn’t be there is a terf. It is literally being thrown around on here, all the women arguing that this boy (and yours) shouldn’t be there are being called terfs.

I very much hope you don’t stay in there with your boy when young girls and teen girls are trying to change. It’s despicable to force girls to be naked in front of your son. He has his own space.

@Thedm as I say, I will continue as I am.
Also 'terf' wouldn't be bandied about for a boy clearly being a boy, how bizarre.
Anyway, you do what you think is best and so will I

Please don't worry JustKeepSwimmingAlong many of us who disagreed with your action in the moment can tell you're a mum doing your best and we're asking to gain a range of insights.
You'd probably find many people who disagreed with your decision in the moment would be right behind you advocating for appropriate accessible changing for your son if he needed it, or supporting you pushing the swim school to put some reasonable adjustments in place if they can to facilitate changing if it's required, or offering suggestions on other ways forward.

Sometimes it's only stepping back after a situation with good intentions that we can see the broader implications of our decisions.

It might be fine with you or some other women (or they simply don’t speak up because, as we have seen, they’ll be called terfs) but it won’t be fine with any young girls changing. And they shouldn’t have to worry about it because your kid shouldn’t be in there. Just learn to respect boundaries. The girls changing room isn’t a place for your boy because he a bloody boy.

She had her answer the minute a teenage girl was upset by the presence of a male in what should have been a female only space.

Female changing rooms are not appropriate for prepubescent boys or trans identified males.

If being aware of that is "TERF" then no wonder the numbers are growing.

My own is 9. Others I've seen have been similar
I'm fine with it.

These posts always go the same way, it's always going to be disagreed on

Don't worry @JustKeepSwimmingAlong nobody actually thinks your son could be trans, there's just two trans obsessed weirdos trying to turn this thread into a trans issues one (while also lambasting people who go on the 'trans threads'...the irony we are now on a 'trans thread' they created). Most normal people can see trans stuff is not relevant here.

Firstly, calling someone “a transgender” is offensive. You’ve already been told to stop that. They don’t want to be called “a transgender.”

Secondly, there really is no super secret nuance here. This is a boy being taken into the female change. Boys don’t belong in the female change. The OP has been told not to take her boy into the female change. Posters popping up saying they will do as they please with their precious sons are being told that no boys belong in female change.

There is no other way to say that. Trans debate or no, this is about older boys being escorted into female changing spaces with their mums. And their mums are being told to stop it.

Give it a fucking rest now because it’s got fuck all to do with whether or not anyone believes trans women are women.

There seems to be two posters trying very hard to turn it into a thread about transgender people. I have no idea why, but it is bloody annoying.

@SnowflakeSparkles

People like you. Not you specifically. Have you read the thread? Have you read how many mothers of sons are gleefully saying that they do this and will continue to do so, ignoring any and all objections. Which results in “no boys in women’s spaces” because there is no simpler way to say it.

What have I been called out for? Nothing I have said is anything I’d be ashamed of seeing in the front page of a newspaper or put all over my social media. I’ve said nothing inflammatory or embarrassing or even wrong. There is literally nothing to call me out on.

Boys should not be in the female group change. This boy, despite the disabilities, should not have been in the female groups change. No other boy mentioned on this thread should be in the female group change.

There is nothing to call me out on. So grow up.

The thread was about trans issues long before I bluntly pointed out the elephant in the room. You were just hiding your lack of nuance behind thinly veiled comments.

No where did I actually voice my opinion on transgenders or t**fs, just pointed out the same hyperbole is being used 🤷🏻‍♀️
When it really isn't relevant can you not see the difference between a nine year old autistic boy and an adult transgender?

Continue to use thinly veiled comments and gaslight anyone who points out the obvious though

There are a couple of reasons.

Firstly, the word is generally used as a misogynistic slur about women who believe we have the right to our own terminology and our own single sex spaces and sports which shouldn't be appropriated by male people.

I hope it's OK to post this link here - trigger warning for threats of violence - but the website below shows how the word is frequently used, and by whom.

www.terfisaslur.com

In many countries such as the US, the fear of being called a TERF is so great among people of a more liberal political persuasion that even the threat of the word is a very effective way of silencing women who might otherwise wish to speak up about their own rights.

Secondly, it's just not accurate.

Gender critical feminists, i.e. the group commonly labelled "TERFs" are not trans exclusionary at all. On the contrary, because we don't recognise the legitimacy of gender as a way to label people or organise society and because we believe that what makes someone a woman is a question of biology and not identity, we believe that feminism should and does include trans men and non binary people who were born female.

Well that's just a lie and attempt to justify your behaviour when its called out that you are being shitty and offensive.

My very first post to the OP was sympathetic and understanding but advised her to not use the female changing rooms with her son. So a completely false and baseless answer. You know you've been called out and are getting irate. Why can't you just reflect on that and change your attitude instead of trying to make everyone else out to be the bad guy.

I honestly find it bizarre that you've gone into this thread that was not about trans issues, brought up trans issues, tried to contribute to a pile on with some utter idiot calling people TERFs/transphobes/accusing people of writing on threads they haven't, only to end up saying after all that you're not 'anti TERF!' What is the bloody point? I think you'd find a lot of transwomen would not want to be changing in front of 9 year old boys either, and they do not refer to themselves as 'transgenders' so there is really no point trying to hide your nonsensical waffle behind trans people. It has no place in this thread whatsoever.

Genuinely didn't mean it in a rude way. I'm not anti trf. I am anti comparing a nine year old boy to an adult transgender though.

Nobody did compare the 9 year old boy to a trans adult until you and SnowflakeSnore rocked up! Honestly are you alright??

Because people like you ignore phrasing like that and continue to say you will do as you please, which leads to sentences being boiled down to their shortest possible to hammer points, in this case the point is, “no boys in female spaces.”

What is so hard to understand? Keep your boys out of female spaces. The female space is not a catch-all when other spaces are busy/not great/not available exactly when and how you need. The female space is not your back up.

Seeing as Mumsnet deleted my comment I have to ask why this was a problem?
Genuinely didn't mean it in a rude way. I'm not anti t*rf. I am anti comparing a nine year old boy to an adult transgender though.

It means the same thing...

Snowflake and Leah

Why are you insisting on bringing this thread back to the trans debate.
It's irrelevant.

It is a discussion about older children going into changing rooms of the opposite sex and has become more broadly a very interesting discussion on facilities, accessible facilities, alternatives to removing single sex spaces.

A lot of posters with a range of views have been having an interesting discussion.

It's starting to seem like having continued to derail the thread from your original angle, you're now resorting to complaining that women discussing about this topic are using words like sex, single sex space, female, male to discuss a situation about single sex changing because on different threads about different topics words such as sex, female and male also are used.

So how would you say that he is too old and no older boys should be allowed in the female changing rooms?

This phrase is completely fine, no?

Do phrases like "males do not belong in single sex spaces" sound a bit different to you, even though it has the same essential meaning?