'I do all these things AND work FT'

My career is male dominated and my role involves leadership. It is competitive and you have to be confident and assertive.

Women aren't allowed to be confident and assertive though because society expects them to be people pleasers, especially when it comes to men. Men are always considered in a positive light when it comes to leadership, confidence and assertiveness but for women, negative language is usually used such as 'bossy' and 'cold'.

Women giving birth and preferring to be assisted by another woman isn't a sexist stereotype, the first is an objective fact, the second is an understandable preference for same sex care that is just as likely to be about privacy and comfort than steteoptypes. Just as a man prefering a male carer would be unlikely to base this on a view men were more caring.

We are. And THAT is what the debate should be!

I am personally bringing my kids up to believe they are individuals, not a boy and a girl (I don’t mean I’m bringing them up gender free; far from it. But I’m trying to show them they don’t have expectations based solely around their genders)

My daughter loves science, sport, dinosaurs, glitter, unicorns and fashion. My boy plays with his sisters dolls, loves his play tiara and also his screwdrivers (he’s a toddler)

It probably helps that I was the primary earner and their dad does more around the house than me.

So what are we teaching boys and girls now, then, @SisterHyster? Because as you say, less aggressive people do tend to gravitate towards more caring roles, and more aggressive people tend to gravitate more towards leadership (even if dreadful leaders) and competitive roles, and society views the more aggressive people as generally more successful. Are we not rewarding aggression? We certainly seem to have some very aggressive people in politics at the moment and an awful lot of aggression in general in the world.

That people often reference the fact that historically women weren't required to engage in active combat as an example of inequality that benefitted wonen. Often when women are pointing out they should not be confined to or barred from certain roles people will say 'I bet you wouldn't have wanted to be in the trenches though would you?' In an attempt to suggest women only want equality when it comes to the desirable roles. It was a tongue in cheek reference to that is all.

I was asking @5128gap - I replied to them.

It doesn’t come down to aggression via caring though, does it? Many roles in the military are caring by nature. And I wouldn’t assume those on the front line are “aggressive” either - we really shouldn’t have aggressive people in any line of work, if we are being ideological.

I think naturally less aggressive people are maybe more inclined to do caring roles (both paid and unpaid) and society has taught men that aggression is a positive attribute and being gentle is negative (“boys will be boys” and “boys don’t cry”) whereas girls get the opposite.

Who are you asking, @SisterHyster? I’m not trying to make a point, just wondering out loud if there is any hope for society becoming less aggressive if more men take on caring responsibilities, I guess, or if women will balance it out by becoming more aggressive and less caring. How much of any of it is nature and how much nurture? How groomed are we all?

No one has said that either.

It's about many things, which people have said on this very thread.

Equality is hardly measured by whether you work or not. There's a bit more to it than that!

Absolutely. It's as much about men having equal opportunities to express caring and nurturing qualities

Equality does not mean the same. Someone’s gender shouldn’t be a consideration when they are applying for a job - would you suggest that we should let women who cannot meet the physical competencies do jobs (important jobs) like front line service simply because they are women, in the name of equality.
The best person for the job should do the job, regardless of their genitalia.

Equality is hardly measured by whether you work or not. There's a bit more to it than that!

… but women today can be on the front line and do any job a man can do, therefore I’m not exactly sure what point you are trying to make?

Midwives usually being women - for some or even many women? I’d be interested to know how many would prefer a female midwife.

Society would certainly function better if people were a tad less competitive, aggressive and prone to fighting.

@janetjupiter yes some women do want to be SAHM. No one has denied that. It's clear some do. And on an individual level that's fine as long as their partner is happy to be sole earner, and provided the SAHM is honest that they're doing it because they want to, and don't try to dress it up as having better outcomes for children etc etc

The fact still remains though that there are huge inequalities in society and many of don't feel comfortable with that and believe there are better ways for society to function

So in other words the answer is no, because far fewer women would be physically capable. I used the First World War simply to avoid having to talk about all the current wars taking place. As for WW1, women were given all sorts of roles at home that were known to require conscious thought - necessity is the mother of increased equality, after all.

You can do that and also point out how problematic our sexist society is.

I've never denied that some women want to be SAHM's.

It's relevant because it's point one of one on the list of Ways Sexist Stereotypes Benefit Women, and so invariably has to be wheeled out as a 'You say you want equality...' gotcha for lack of a more contemporary example.

'What's the alternative here? Sit back and shrug at inequality because some women do want to be SAHM's?'

Jusr accept that women are all different and many will always prefer to be with their children if at all possible.

Then those are probably men we shouldn’t be reproducing with.

My mum works in a nursery, four of her colleagues are men.

My daughter had two male nursery teachers.

It’s not particularly unheard of.

I can't think of anyone who has said that women should be forced back to work if it's possible for them to be SAHM's.

Some have just said that they would like to see a more equal society and have suggested things that would mean it is more likely for men to step up such as a use it or lose it paternity leave that is much better than the woeful standard 2 weeks men currently get and to make it more normalised for them to be able to request flexible working or going part time if it is indeed possible in their line of work and of course, if they want to.

What's the alternative here? Sit back and shrug at inequality because some women do want to be SAHM's?

If a woman is physically capable, then sure. Same as for men.

Not sure why WW1 is relevant to a discussion around SAHP/Working parents though, given that in WW1 women were barely considered to be capable of conscious thought.

And the fact that women often go through pregnancy, breastfeeding (or try to be the main feeder to mimic breastfeeding) and have maternity leave. It’s often a natural progression to stay with them a bit longer then the magical 9months to a year of maternity leave. If this was the USA, would you expect every woman to go back to work at six weeks as otherwise they are not providing and good role models for their children? Alternatively would being a sahm for two years be acceptable if we had two years maternity pay like some countries?

It’s also incredibly patronising. Some women find it painful leaving their kids and really, really don’t want to go back to work for a while. For some women it may be worth doing it anyway, but for some it may not. Why should women have to be pushed to do it to fight sexism? It’s not fighting sexism it’s making women suffer as always.

On a population level, women are far more likely to struggle with separation from their babies / toddlers than men. This is not societal pressure, it's basic biology (exacerbated by societal expectations to a greater or lesser degree).

Of course some women struggle less than others and some women don't want children at all. But anyone who has lived on Planet Earth, in any culture, can see that it's far more common for women to struggle with separation from their children.