'I do all these things AND work FT'

Also, the reality is that very few women are sahm anymore.

It's been frequently stated that it isn't about individual SAHM's on a micro level, it's about looking at it from a macro level and that society is to blame due to sexism, not individual SAHM's.

It doesn't affect men in the same way as in biologically, they don't experience pregnancy or giving birth and obviously some women breastfeed too but like you said, more paternity leave is necessary because fathers want and need to bond with their babies too.

Mine had 4 weeks of paternity leave with DS which is double the typical amount and he was upset about going back, he didn't feel like it was enough. This time he will be taking 6 weeks.

…. Which often results in a perfect environment for men to excel in the workplace and earn more money.

You’re right that SAHMs aren’t to blame. These things are:

the fact that there’s a gender pay gap so it makes far more sense most of the time that the man goes back to be the ‘breadwinner’ while the woman is ‘homemaker’.

the fact that maternity leave is better than paternity so women often fall into the role of main caregiver

To give just two reasons.

typing quick and skiving so sorry if not clear and I’ve missed something glaring

It has been frequently stated in here that SAHMs perpetuate structural inequality.

That would be true if women are being forced to be SAHMs.

I would argue that these days, there are probably far more SAHMs by choice, or women who would prefer to be SAHM, work part-time or work more flexibly, but the cost of living, combined with workplace cultures prohibit this.

Telling women to essentially 'suck it up' in the name of feminism won't bring true equality. Women shouldn't be blaming SAHMs or women who work part-time for structural inequality ffs! Urgh. They should be blaming workplace cultures for not being more adaptive to the reality of the fact that most women have children and it doesn't just affect them for 12 weeks or 6 months and it's no use pretending it affects men in the same way either (though I do agree with extended paternity leave of course, or 'use it or lose it').

Again, when children are teens, it's probably more stress to be honest, and I don't care what anyone says, most mums tend to feel it more. Plus menopause kicks in and women are expected to get on with it. It's only recently that women are starting to talk about this.

If men experienced any of this, working structures would have evolved very differently. So I think it's high time women demand what they want on their own terms, not men's terms.

@SouthLondonMum22 you've written really clearly what I wanted to say! The issue is exactly that- people should not feel that there is any 'should' about it.

I also returned to work with a 12 week old, in my case because that's what ML was back then. But those of us who returned to work just got on with it; those who didn't just got on with it. Those of us who bf did, those who didn't, didn't. And guess what, our children, with good parenting have been raised into lovely adults, whether we worked or not. To me that's the most important thing, raising children with love, sound values and of course all the other elements which go into parenting.

But no one has said that. It's incredibly frustrating to keep claiming that people are saying things they haven't said.

It shouldn't be insisted that women feel any way after becoming mothers because all mothers are different. I went back to work at 12 weeks by choice and society would say I'm not 'maternal', I'm 'wired differently' etc which is incorrect, I'm just as much as a mother as those who take the full maternity leave or those who want to be SAHM's.

That is what needs to stop. The pressure, the double standards etc that women face when they become mothers but men don't when they become fathers.

but anyone of here saying cooking ‘lavish’ (I think we mean healthy fresh meals) is quick is deluded. Planning shopping and prep of fresh balanced meals every single day takes time and energy. It is absolutely exhausting

Cooking fresh healthy meals is not exhausting, it can be as simple as you want it to be but I guess it depends if you enjoy it or not. I work FT but coming home and cooking the dinner from scratch is my unwind time, it's therapeutic. Maybe not the case if you just see it as another chore.

Yes, I have acknowledged that women and men are different. They aren't entirely different species though! And dh certainly felt differently when our dc arrived, absolutely. He wanted time to be with them and to be hands on too. And equally, although having children changed me, it didn't mean I completely lost all the other aspects of my life, I remained just as good at my job for example.

Agree. It really isn't exhausting, people love to exaggerate.

Yes I understand that, but the way to a more equitable society is not insisting women aren't allowed to feel differently to men after children (or they are but only for a few weeks according to some in these threads). I think you have to acknowledge they ARE different in some ways because this is the way to achieve a meaningful equality, as opposed to the situation for too many now where, in reality, women are trying to be all things too all people at the cost of their mental and physical heath.

but anyone of here saying cooking ‘lavish’ (I think we mean healthy fresh meals) is quick is deluded. Planning shopping and prep of fresh balanced meals every single day takes time and energy. It is absolutely exhausting

If we actually mean healthy and fresh (and I wouldn't necessarily take that from 'lavish') then it really doesn't have to be.

Is it just me, or do other people feel that the message that comes across to both men and women is rather negative? It often feels like men are being harangued to help more with all this horrible baby, child and domestic work (it’s quite a novel thing on this thread that so many people have said they don’t want their partners to miss out on a valuable experience, rather than they don’t want their partners to evade their fair share of the hard work); and women are harangued for being brainless and brainwashed for expressing any pleasure in doing it, and are also told they should stop being people pleasers and should be as willing as men to over-inflate their abilities and ask for bigger payrises. It’s very hard in all this to see where the place is for being nurturing, kind and less self-centred, as anyone thinking of others’ needs before their own even for a minute, male or female, can be accused of not protecting themselves properly, of people pleasing, or being a pushover. It’s really somewhat depressing that the message can so easily morph from it being good to be nurturing and kind, but be careful not to lose sight of yourself in all that, to it being a sign of weakness if you don’t actually put yourself first at all times, because that’s what men are doing - and it’s all just down to the choice of language.

@janetjupiter great!

The important issue though is not individual's own situations but the wider issue of structural inequalities. And of course your situation is not at all representative of most people because very few couples are in a situation to have 4 kids, a SAHP who is not financially vulnerable (particularly if they weren't in a high paying role prior to kids- though tbf you may have been in a high paying public sector role- there are some!)

Women as a group are economically hugely disadvantaged compared to men, and statistically they outlive their partners which compounds the issue even further.

It's not about you, me or any other individual ultimately - it's about striving for a more equitable society where women and men arent defaulted into specific roles

The other thing that I find odd on these threads is that people go on about 'oooh..., SAHMs to school aged children' as if they're somehow entitled to pass judgement about this.

Don't people realise that (unless you have twins or triplets), it's not as if they all go to school at the same time! For instance, when my eldest started reception, I had a 2 year-old and was pregnant with DS3. 2 years later, I had DS1 in Year 2, DD1 in reception, DS2 at home (then aged 2) and had given birth to DD2. It was 9 or ten years before I had 'all school aged children, oh my god.' If you think I'm rushing back to work after that in case people 'judge', you must be joking! Anyway, life is just as busy when they're in school, just different.

If I just had one child, I wouldn't have been a SAHM, but we could easily afford to have 4 DC and for me to SAH and that was what I wanted. I make no apologies for that. I am not financially vulnerable - if I was, do you think I'd be a SAHM? I used to do a public sector job deemed 'worthy,' but it was very draining and I've been much happier focusing on my own 4 children and pets, volunteering and other things I have more mental capacity for. Nobody has ever asked me if I work or not!

Completely disagree that cooking healthy meals takes masses of time! Cooking meals is a perfectly normal part of adult life, people do it whether they have kids or not!

I supported the PTA and fundraisers when my kids were at school but I'd absolutely have jacked that in if I found it 'exhausting' like you- it really shouldn't be like that.

Cats are far less time consuming than dogs

Type A or B is very busy but anyone of here saying cooking ‘lavish’ (I think we mean healthy fresh meals) is quick is deluded. Planning shopping and prep of fresh balanced meals every single day takes time and energy. It is absolutely exhausting. Keeping house spotless clean, clothes ironed dogs walked etc. And let’s not even start on the exhausting school PTA/voluntary event/fundraising planning cycle. Much easier and far more fun to go to work than be a SAHM. And I say this after trying both ways….thankgod mine are teens now lol…good luck however you get through those years…

Negative posts both ways, let's not pretend there aren't.

The more enlightened posts are focused on the actual important issue that huge inequalities still exist in 2023

Exactly. And it’s patronising and not the point for the women who want to stay home for a bit. It’s like retiring. Should women have to retire much later then men? Maybe we should be allowed to retire earlier. Maybe it should be equal. Lots of ways to look at this.

Exactly. There have been lots of posts that are very negative about sahm. Don’t really want to quote them all.

I agree but I mentioned it as I only saw male obstetricians for appointments throughout pregnancy and it was men who delivered my babies in the end too.

Yes, the fact that few men want to be midwives does have the positive side effect that we are more likely to get a woman. But it's a low bar if we have to consider ourselves fortunate that because men have decided they want nothing to do with our labours (other than should a higher status more highly paid HCP be required, when odds on they make an appearance as the doctor) rather than we get women midwives because that's what we as women want.

That is certainly true, @SouthLondonMum22 , but I see more than mere confidence and assertion in many of today’s leaders, male and female. I find that quite alarming.

I don’t think that’s what’s sexist at all - the women wanting care by a woman. If so, I include myself in that. I actually meant that it benefits women: the lack of men in midwifery as it’s seen as a job for women. There was a male midwife doing a shift during part of my labour.

@SisterHyster - I have brought my children up the same way, too, but a bit of me fears that the naturally less aggressive one will could be eaten alive the way the world is at the moment and should have been prepped to be a bit more self-centred and aggressive…