Disruptive kids in class

@Valeriekat you remove wants not needs! Taking away childrens play time impacts on their ability to regulate.

So in our school we work more carrot, earn a token X number of tokens equal golden time on a Friday. Children vote their choice of activity.

But you have to set it up to ensure it is achievable by all children because children have different capacity and development timelines.

It works, our school has a high level of SEN support, the children use restorative justice and the whole school community work very much on a core mutual respect basis.

I've seen many children benefit hugely from this approach and go on to successfully engage in secondary school because they were supported in figuring out what works for them and how to self advocate.

Put everything in writing. Copy in safeguarding. Encourage any other parents who mention it to do it too. It must be in writing.

If you have a discussion follow it up with an email.

‘Dear Mrs Jones
thank you for your time today.
You said that x would happen going forward when a child misbehaves. Do you think this is sufficient to safeguard the other children in class? If they continue to misbehave what will happen next’.
They may just point to the behaviour policy but get it all in writing.

Had this issue a while back in my dd class. Once the main offender turned 10 and hurt another pupil, the parents (who were sick of the schools lack of action) went straight to the police and complained to the governors, ofsted and the local authority. The same child (same week) hurt another child and police report again. The school presumably didn’t want the police and paperwork and the behaviour policy was made stricter, followed to the letter and the boy spent break time indoors most days - which safeguarded the other children that he regularly hurt.

Is private school an option for you?

Of course, the kids aren't all angelic 100% of the time but there isn't the kind of behaviour you describe at all.

Great! So what do you suggest?

I am the mother of what would have been two of 'them' children and also worked as an lsa ( on a 1 to 1 basis actually responsible for 12 kids). Yes complain to the schools absolutely also stand alongside parents of those who have sen children who are begging for more semh and sen schools and places because believe me we want the best education for our kids and your kids and often neither are being met .

Completely agree with this . Although it's not usually every one and NOBODY should miss out that hasn't done anything wrong . Very difficult balance to strike .

This is education in the current climate. And I'm afraid it's only gonna get worse.

Be careful about what you term the whole class punishments. No it is not acceptable to punish everyone. You may however find that it is not just the kid or kids your son has told you about. Not playing football because they are fighting or playing aggressively may well be the right call.

Class punishments & not doing PE are ridiculous considering how important play and burning off energy is especially for those with asd.
my son has autism but he wouldn’t say boo to a goose as he is a rule follower, one of his friends has autism/adhd and needs to have more movement they can leave the class whenever in secondary and go to a quiet room to work.
When my son was at primary school, all the kids with additional needs had sensory circuit as soon as they arrive at school, an extra playtime in the afternoon and use of a sensory room when needed.

I agree whole class punishment 1.if the child is being bullied the created more resentment. 2. It doesn't fix the individual child's issue and address the actual problem whether that's emotional , behaviour or a further cause.

I haven't read every reply but I found this post whilst questioning a change of school for mine also in year 4 . I would.like to share his story with you . Now first and foremost you must obviously put your child and their needs first and.prehaps have a conversation with them. Perhaps this child is being bullied ? My son was bullied by a perticular boy in year r . At the time he couldn't speak or hear so actually had to point this boy out . I thought it was resolved . It wasn't . Year three he finally burst and told me it never stopped and he couldn't take it anymore I went to the school who assured me it would be ok . My child has NEVER shown any aggressive,angry or down right rude behaviour. Hand on heart he's wonderful!! He went into year 4 this year and this same child is in his class . My child is now launching tables ,kicking chairs ,ripping stuff up chucking pens and just being disruptive!!! He's now been excluded . Never once been in trouble but now has had 2 internal and 2external in 2 weeks.he tells me why should he be excluded for making people unsafe when the school have not kept him safe for 5 years ? He would prefer to be disruptive and lose break time so he doesn't get kicked and punched as much. These kids pretend they are getting things then punch him while actively in class. He feels frustrated , angry,not listened too and quite frankly exhausted .now I do understand your worry there was another child being mean but as my son said this kid targeted Everyone he had "behaviour" issues he didn't see this kid as a bully because it was clear this was not targeted or if the child has emotional issues it could be more complex ! This other child bullying him specifically targets my child . Now the school are ADAMANT he has Sen needs and needs a Sen school . I cannot slap my son with a life long diagnosis after 2 months of disruptive behaviour following FIVE YEARS of bullying . I'd be ready to snap too......... I just wanted to give the other side . My son is a pain in the bum but not to this extent usually .maybe this child needs a friend ?

The problem with academies is there's another layer between the school and the local authorities who still provide what limited SEN support there is.

We had similar issues in my daughter’s school and we moved her. Her new school is a small village school and the difference is astonishing. There are no major behavioural issues and she is actually learning every day for the first time. Best decision ever.

Tutors and extra curriculars are a lot cheaper than the £5k we've spent so far on getting assessments and support for our SEN child (all of which are theoretically available in the public sector, apart from they're not really).

EHCP has taken 13 months so far and now a wait for tribunal (another 10 months).

The whole situation stinks, for everyone!

There are lots of things that a school could do, but cancelling PE shouldn't be one of them! The kids obviously need to get some energy out. Do they have any movement breaks or do the daily mile or anything like that?

@Djimm I disagree with you. It's mainstream with maybe some support if funding allows or specialised schooling. We don't have ehcps, we have IEPs that take months, if not a year or longer, to come through. Most kids are on a uep which is not a legal requirement to provide x

Mainstream schools are not equipped to have kids with additional needs.

So while it's difficult for schools, it's difficult for parents and for the children who need more. Other parents/kids don't want them in class, the teachers can't do anything about it and the schools are not in a position to support much which then causes more behavioural issues at school and at home. TAs are thin on the ground and being shared between classes.

Everyone's being let down.

I agree with a lot of what you say @Djimm
There's also the fact that EHCP applications etc. are facing a huge backlog. 2 years is about average in the borough where I teach. To put that in perspective, a child with possible needs will likely be identified in Reception, and the necessary third party evidence for an application likely will take most of that year to collate (applications with insufficient evidence are rejected). So the application goes in just as the child transitions to Y1. It will be Y3 before any funding is available.

In the meantime schools just have to do what we can with dwindling resources and reduced staff numbers.

I think it is odd that they restrict outdoor play ... I can only think that they don't have sufficient extra staff to cope with the children who might pose a danger to themselves or the others. For example, we have lots of climbers and runners and you can't safely manage a class of children while trying to prevent one from scaling a fence.

Education is in crisis and nobody is being served well, sadly.

I would disagree with you on most of this. There is a lot more that can be done in a MS setting than leave an inexperienced teacher to deal with it without an LSA. There are EHCPs to fund one to ones (who can not only help the child within the classroom but make it possible for them to safely go elsewhere if needed) and before EHCPs come through there is emergency top up funding schools can apply for. LAs may have a behaviour team the school can call on for specialist advice, or an EP to make recommendations. The blocker can be that the school has to pay for this out of limited funds, or have a set number of hours per year and be spending them on students seen as higher need.

It is extraordinarily difficult for schools, they are chronically underfunded. Yet some manage this this kind of thing better than others. One SENCo will tell you there will never be extra help for your child because they are not high enough need, another will secure an EHCP and one to one all day long for the same child. One school will tell you there is no possibility of a breakout room for students who can't successfully stay in the classroom, others will make it happen and find funding for an LSA to support children there. LSAs are also a bit of a lottery - they can be absolutely brilliant, skilled experts, but they can also be someone trying to do the best they can without much support or training. Too often it seems to come down to these individuals but it's all underpinned by the school's culture and SLT, and these vary so much.

I think it's impossible at the moment for schools to meet the needs of all the students adequately. Budgets just don't stretch. But some do a lot better than others and it really isn't specialist provision or nothing, especially in primary.

If there are students like this in a class then there are some things the teacher can do.

There used to be a service that would advise on students with behavioural needs. It may have been cut but the school may be able to ask for that support from the LA if it still exists.

If not, then the advice more generally for the teacher would be to look for what is triggering that behaviour and trying to either avoid if possible or put something in place so that the behaviour doesn't happen.

A fairly obvious example is that many students with SEND find unstructured time difficult. So they might be allowed to come in 10 mins late to avoid the cloakroom maelstrom, etc. or the teacher might set up a group of friends for them to play with at play time.

Most of these are much easier to implement with a TA.

It sounds like the behaviour is sufficiently difficult that they have taken the decision not to allow the class to do PE because of the risk of physical injury.

You could ask that alternative arrangements be set up for PE - for example if there is more than one class in a year then a group of children from both classes do PE one week while the others do art, and then it switches but some students stay in the art class. This could be sold as they are specialising in art, or doing an intervention or whatever.

Keeping them in at break is generally considered bad practice but it does work to moderate behaviour which is why teachers use it.

Realistically if there are multiple students who are like this and there is no additional TA support from the school, the process to apply for additional money from the LA to support the needs of these children is long and time consuming.

In your shoes I would move school.

They can miss it if it's not safe to do though.

Agreed. I had a pupil who would run off the premises. Outdoor PE was off the agenda without and additional adult ... but there was no one available.
We were then dependent on hall space. A lot of the time, there was no availability, so no PE. This in turn leads to worsening behaviour.
It's a shit show. Glad I'm out of it. But also feel very sad about the whole thing.

Agree about the inappropriate curriculum. It's the same at primary. Contributes to poor behaviour. Totally understandable - you're being taught abstract concepts at too young an age and irrelevant content.