Asd/adhd discipline

My son us now an adult in his twenties. He’s severely autistic, non verbal with very little understanding. Any discipline is done within the scope of what he understands. He understands that hitting, head butting etc is wrong but he wouldn’t understand consequences and where his understanding is so limited it would no point giving a consequence. He does pick up on emotion though so we would say No and tell him he’s made us sad.

in your situation you should discipline him because he clearly understands he’s done./doing wrong. Only you know your child.

@PostItInABook Fab post!!

My DD is autistic and I recognise so much in the OP

Birthdays/Christmas - always been an issue for her. Hates the attention on her, things are out of routine, is awkward around gifts - how to react to gifts, how she should behave towards a gift giver and their expectations of her.

She will usually spend half the night awake, anxious and worrying about it and have worked herself up into a state before the day has even begun.

Her bucket would be full and she’d be mentally and physically exhausted at this point and meltdown would be imminent

She’d be a bit iffy about being expected to share sweets that had been given to her as a birthday gift.

She’s older now, and much better at understanding how she’s feeling, what her feelings mean and taking herself off to calm down, but we talked a lot about appropriate behaviour, swearing wasn’t acceptable and finding strategies to help when she’s starting to feel dysregulated before it all goes bang.

With my asd son this would just escalate the situation and cause WW3.

In the moment we would need to step back and disengage. Give him space to calm down and regulate. Then at a later date we would talk through ways that he could have expressed his anger or disappointment.

We very rarely punish anymore, we find it completely counterproductive with our asd child.

It's draining.
Birthdays and Christmas are usually a bit head melty
Non stimulant medication helped with anger of my asd and adhd teen.
He calls me idiot quite a bit when dysregulated.
We have work quite a bit on him understanding his own emotions and triggers and learning how to recognise them and things that help him self soothe and calm.
Set rules work well for us which we have made as a family. So no getting your butt out of bed until 7am - you can read, listen to audiobook, play with lego etc but you have to be quiet.

I try to remember they are emotionally about 5 years younger but we all have our limits and lose the plot at them

Yes. It’s really about identifying trigger points and figuring out together (when they’re a bit older, obviously not toddlers etc) what can be done to mitigate / reduce the stress. But you don’t know this stuff if you’re neurotypical with little experience of autism unless someone helps you.

It’s funny, because I was only diagnosed a few years ago, but I sometimes sit with my mum over a glass of wine or two and we chat about my childhood and things that happened and can both now recognise where the autism was showing itself. My mum and dad, without really knowing much, did make adjustments that mitigated the stress and prevented meltdowns (or tantrums as they would have been called back then) but didn’t really know they were doing if it that makes sense. Eg. I absolutely could not cope with the feeling of sand and would have huge meltdowns if they tried to put me down on the sand or sand got on me, but we basically lived on the beach and it was where all our family/friends socialised so to prevent an unpleasant experience for us all my parents would take a cheap, small paddling pool, blow it up and put a bit of seawater in it and I would happily sit in that ALL day. Bit more work / planning at the beginning of the day but it was worth it for all of us.

The way we deal with meltdowns is.

1. Where possible avoid the meltdown, avoid situations known to cause it, timers, low demands in stressful situations etc, parenting courses massively helped with this aspect.
2. If meltdown happens, no aggressive or abusive behaviour is allowed. If he is starting to get aggressive we will give a shout out, like a military order or if necessary restrain him from biting/hitting to enforce this one. We used every version of gentle parenting before we landed on this one but the meltdowns only got worse. A short sharp jolt with a shout or if necessary a restraint to stop him hitting/biting is the only one that has ever worked and it was a last resort. It means things don’t escalate and the aggression on his side is managed.
3. Give a tonne of space to regulate
4. Deal with the conflict as soon as he is back to 8 out of 10 because as others have said shame kicks in big style and you want to reassure that you love and empathise with him. We find that resolution at 8 out of 10 brings DS back to himself straight away but that is going to be different for each child.

Working through this going forward I'd

• give the bike on a weekend/ make it a go and collect and use straightaway situation
• prepare a walk through beforehand (your siblings will want to join in the excitement/ you might see them get caught up in it all/ what do you suggest we do if xy or z scenario occurs?)
• prepare for the early get up by having very little to do myself as much as possible
• get ready to catch the meltdowns with decompression aids available (mostly screens in our household)

Two children with ADHD and Autism in my household.

@PostItInABook What a helpful post. I have an autistic son and this was good to read. A little.understanding goes a long way doesn't it?

OP I don't have any advice not already offered but with my son, we tend to discuss it afterwards and often he gives me pointers like the above which help me to prepare for next time.

Op I think this is some good advice from someone who lives it.

Today is his birthday - Trigger Point 1 - a ‘non-routine’ day where things out of the ‘ordinary’ occur. This can induce unrecognised feelings of anxiety (attention on him / unfamiliar routine / not ‘knowing’ exactly what is going to happen) for days beforehand (as well as excitement) so already his ‘bucket’ has got something in.
Next time - create a plan with DS that clearly outlines the day a week or so beforehand (what the routine will be, what and when opening presents looks like, does he want all surprises, a small surprise or no surprises? Etc)

he woke up at 4am - Trigger Point 2 - excess tiredness as you go on to say is a known issue.
Next time - make sure the plan addresses what to do if he wakes up super early. How can you reduce the likelihood of excess tiredness? Can he had a quiet gift waiting on his bed to open and use? Can he go back to sleep? Can he go to bed earlier the night before? Can he have a nap/quiet time at some point in the day?

We got him a new bmx, some pens, a book some sweets and a ps5 game. - Trigger Point 3 (possibly) - I don’t know if he got his gifts all at once, with everyone watching him, getting themselves involved, everyone talking, everyone touching his gifts once he’d opened them so not sure, but for many autistic people having their stuff messed with / touched by others especially when new can be a big trigger point. For example, I cannot let anyone read a magazine or book I’ve bought until I’ve read it first. It’s not about being selfish and not wanting to share. You can have the bloody thing once I’m done with it. It’s about keeping things ‘right’ and doing it the ‘right way’ in my head. It’s really hard to explain, but once you have a ‘rule’ generated / developed in your head and you’re used to it, it’s very difficult when someone messes with it.
Next time - make sure the plan addresses these points. If he is someone who would prefer to have his gifts in a neat pile with no one else touching them to start with then make sure that happens. If you know the younger ones might want to be a bit nosy make a plan about how that can be addressed / managed.

he immediately got annoyed about younger siblings asking for a sweet - screamed at them both called them idiots etc. - Trigger Point 4 - kind of same as above, though any personal insults thrown should be an immediate stop and reset. If that means taking a break from the situation to prevent escalation then do it. Does he have a quiet area where he can self-soothe or use some sort of sensory input? My place is the shower (water).

he then said he was going out on his bike - I said it was tooo early, too wet & the tires needed pumping. - Trigger Point 5 - he has something shiny and new he wants to try out that you gave him. You gave it to him early in the morning, when it was wet outside. To my autistic brain (and possibly his) that means logically it’s fine to use because otherwise you wouldn’t have given it to him would you? To then be told, well, actually, No you can’t use it, even though I gave it to you now, because it’s too early, too wet and it’s not even ready to use yet makes no sense to a young black and white thinking autistic brain. Not properly understanding why leads to frustration leads to the contents of that bucket reaching the top.
Next time - if he’s getting an outside gift plan for it. Pump the tyres up beforehand, get it ready to use before you give it to him. Plan with him how it will be used. If it’s wet, coats on, a few go’s round the block then back in or something. etc etc.

The falling off / accident tipped his frustration over the edge and then you had the full meltdown.

So there were possibly 5 trigger points filling the bucket up to the brim then it overflowed with the last thing and meltdown happened. You can’t stop a meltdown once it’s in full flow so no amount of shouting, cajoling, explaining etc is going to do anything. But have a plan for where he can go during a meltdown. What can he do to get his frustrations out that is safe and isn’t directed at anyone? Throwing a bouncy ball at the wall in his room? Ripping up paper? Punching a pillow? Getting in the shower?

Once he is calm, address the name calling / nasty behaviour before the meltdown. Together you need to learn to recognise what fills his bucket the most and what helps to empty it.

Oh, one last thing…..bright lights are an issue for me. So maybe try and use lamps rather than bright overhead lights sometimes?

With mine (ASD, no ADHD) I would just be there with the constant reminders 'please don't call me/your brothers an idiot it's very rude' and 'I love you regardless', although obviously if that is just going to escalate things in your son's case then obviously it's not good advice for you!

Beyond that I wouldn't punish him as he has already been punished by natural consequences with scraped knuckles. I would also be telling the other children that it's rude to ask someone for sweets - you wait till you're offered.

Things i would do and that really can transform life (but involves plenty of hard work) is to pre-empt as much as you can. So you probably knew he'd want to go right out on the bike so only give presents that are all ready to go - anything else is likely to cause huge frustration and upset. Also don't give presents at a time when it's not going to be possible to use them - we often shifted present giving to the weekend before ds's birthday so he had all weekend to play with them rather than having to leave them to go to school, but he wouldn't have been allowed to open them at 4:30 - so keep them in your room or out the way until a reasonable time perhaps.

Birthdays and Christmas are hard.

It sounds like it all got a bit much.

For my DD I'd wait until she was calmer and had got her emotions under control again. I'd then talk to her regarding the name calling and what could have been done differently that would have made the morning go better.

DD has PDA so apologies in terms of using the word sorry are very difficult. I'd expect some kind of acknowledgement like giving the siblings a sweet each.

For my DD a gentle guidance approach when regulated works better than any sanction/reward method.

I wouldn't be taking the bike away. I'm quite shocked that that was suggested. That would be incredibly harsh even for a neurotypical child.

Not knowing what is autism and what is just bad behaviour will be helped by a diagnosis and professional help.

I agree with a pp that not sharing sweets he’s been given as a gift isn’t worthy of punishment - there are so many threads on MN about how MNers don’t always want to share their food gifts!

I think SEN board is a better bet too. Also, it’s hard to advise when you don’t have a diagnosis from a professional as different things may work depending on what it is that he has.

My ds (9) has diagnosed adhd - what works is very closely related and predictable consequences, with a warning before going for the full “measure”. Lots of preparation ahead of special events like this.

In general terms - understanding their condition and helping them to understand it works too - lots of extra explanations of everything and how they may expect to feel/ want to react. ADHD coaching is meant to be treat, we’re looking into it at the moment. And failing that, my Ds has had lots of helps at school re feelings and impulsivity - he finds that grounding techniques help him.

”ADHD is my super power” is a great book.

@Redbushteaforme why is not wanting to share a present he's only just received bad behaviour? Surely the bad behaviour is asking for someone else's present, the younger kids should have waited until the present was opened and offered.

Maybe focus on the most important things to work, so the swearing and aggression, and ignore the rest. And try to anticipate flash point, so don't hand over a present he can't actually use (bike where the tyres need inflating) and tackle the rudeness of your younger children (asking for his birthday presents).

MY DD has autism. I do try to draw a line between understanding behaviour arising from the ASD and just plain bad behaviour. Not wanting to share sweets, taking a bike outside when told not to, and being obnoxious to parents is bad behaviour, and she would be told her behaviour was not acceptable and be sent somewhere quiet to calm down. Having said that, we rarely have bad behaviour (she is 16 now) as the boundaries re bad behaviour were laid down a long time ago and she knows where they are. We don't really use punishments, and I certainly wouldn't be taking your DS's bike away from him, as I think that would be hard even on a NT child. I would rather wait until he has calmed down, speak about what happened and why it wasn't good, give him a reassuring cuddle, and get on hopefully with everyone enjoying the rest of the day., including agreeing exactly what is going to be happening when and where.

I understand what PPs are saying about disregulated behaviour, and I think a big part of the approach needs to be identifying the triggers for this before they happen so that they can be avoided/managed.

I agree with setting up days so they are more likely to work.
Having presents good to go when they are handed over.
Not having too much for them to manage at once.

There is a lot of work that can be done around being hurtful to people, the language they use and how to express what they are feeling without being abusive.

But big events are not the right time to start this work. Once the work has started it is easier to remind them of it, get them to take breaks, work on keeping their body calm and express what they are feeling.

But as others have said once your dc is dysregulated there aren't many options until they have worked through it.

The reasoning is fine if it is a tantrum but it won't work if it is a meltdown. When a child has a meltdown they effectively go into fight or flight with all their stress cylinders firing. They can't process an explanation as to how they should be behaving and reason it out. A calming voice is obviously good and shouting will just exacerbate the situation but expecting them to process the words can lead to further over stimulation. Its like going into toddler brain (read Dan siegal), they need support to calm and only when they are calm can they process and reflect. To differentiate a tantrum is to try and get something the child wants and would end when they get it whereas a meltdown is dysregulation and overload, often of the sensory systems, and can't be stopped b giving the child sweets or whatever they were after. To me the situation given is a meltdown as each stage didn't give the child what they needed/wanted to regulate. I think you have a good instinct OP as you recognise triggers and where the meltdown began x

This kind of situation is made for collaborative problem solving. When everyone's calm, talk to him about how the day was tough. Share your concerns - that it isn't fair on siblings to be insulted, that it was pretty horrible for you, that it didn't seem much for him either. Let him tell you his side of what happened. And then work together - but with him taking the lead - on what might make things go better next time. I don't mean 'I'll do better'. I mean 'Getting all that stuff in one day was too much for me to handle'. Or 'I'd rather open presents on my own' Or 'Can I go with you and choose the bike' Or....

I actually think CPS isn't stereotypical gentle parenting, because you're pushing the kid to take responsibility for their own struggles.

Punishment is still the parent taking the lead and creating a structure that's supposed to lead to good behaviour - whether it does is another matter of course.

CPS says 'That was a doozy. What can you do to prevent it happening again? And then you try the solution and maybe it doesn't work, so you try something else.

Yes, if there's no consequences he will just do it again. Remind him that he spoilt his day by not listening to you.

My DD really really struggles on birthdays, so we tend to go into crisis mode, rather than worrying about discipline. However, only you know what is appropriate for your child.

We tend to have to remind DD not to be cheeky, and that we are making parenting decisions but I don't punish behaviour in a meltdown. DD is overcome with shame after a meltdown so further punishment seems harsh. Other 'punishment' is a natural consequence of decisions - i.e. you show bad decision making, you are not trusted to do xx again, or yy is taken away.

We try and have a clear plan for birthdays - and any other situation we know will be difficult.

We did presents either at weekend or day before or after.
Unless its half term?
Yes preempting so saying this is your present but you cant use it til after xyz
Its awful when they wake early!

If my DS behaved like that I would calmly explain why is wasn't acceptable, remind him what we expect, how you should behave and remove all his gifts from view until he was regulated.

We use breathing techniques and zones of regulations mainly.

Our DS, 12, had just been diagnosed with ASD and ADHD. Knowing we can't police everything, we have three rules - no swearing, no name calling and no physically harming others or property. He knows that and he often restrains himself but can lash out physically and/or verbally. there are consequences for this which he feels acutely - time away from screens. But as per PP, we try to preempt situations before they arise. My wife is pretty switched onto this sort of thing thankfully. 'Coach to win' is a phrase we use a lot in our household.