Yitzhak Rabin assassination - do you remember / know?

Shimon Peres should have called a general election immediately after Rabin was assassinated. That would have ensured a Labour victory and rule for a few years. And Arafat should have accepted the peace deal offered by Ehud Barak when he was PM. It was never going to get better than that and there were concessions for both sides. Netanyahu is a disgrace as a politician, but what Hamas have done is unspeakable. I am amazed that there was no Israeli intel on the operation - those rockets would not have appeared overnight.

Do you genuinely think that if Palestine were to be granted full recognition the violence would stop?

How would that work when the dominant religion of the region and the neighbouring regimes believe that every inch of that area from river to sea, is Islamic holy land and that while any part of it is under non-muslim control Jihad must be waged?

Hamas' actions are wholly unjustifiable. They sicken me.

It's always men though isn't it.

most of the Palestinian people want peace, most of the Israelis want peace

Not according to surveys of people actually living in the area - http://pcpsr.org/en/node/928.

And Hamas most certainly do not want peace, from their charter;

'The day the enemies usurp part of Muslim land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Muslim. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.'

'Peace initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of
the Islamic Resistance Movement [HAMAS]. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.'

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.'

When you wonder if Israel and Palestine will come back to the table do you include Hamas as well because they have no interest in any peaceful solution, reports suggest that the current situation has been funded and supported by another nation.

‘. I utterly deplore and condemn the actions of Hamas but anyone who believes Netanyahu sincerely wants peace is utterly deluded.’

yup. I heard a Jewish commentator say the Hamas attack was ‘unprovoked terrorism’ and thought WTF. How in earth can anyone actually believe that.

Whats happened is the result of bitterness and esculation from both parties.

I was thinking about this last night: if you have the army on the streets on a regular basis in order to keep control, you have a situation where you aren't reflecting the whole population. Its illiberal and its unjust. And injustice will always feed violence.

Terrorism can be individual or state sponsored. Its always fuelled by the motivation of a sense of injustice.

You can't stop terrorism unless you start to consider and unpick this sense of injustice. Israel and Palestine are a million miles from even starting to do that. There is no willingness to do that. The opposite side are just seen as a threat and demonised.

Civilians have very much been caught in the middle of it for year.

There isn't going to be a resolution any time soon and tbh wider international politics is in play. It suits Iran to stir the pot at this particular moment in time - it aligns with the interests of Russia.

I just can't see it as 'this is the good guy and this is the bad guy' and I hate the story telling that constructs this. Its fundamentally different to the Ukraine invasion for that reason where there wasn't a long history of Ukraine blowing up Russian civilians on Russian soil and its much more one sided in terms of violence (Ukraine aren't sainted either which I appreciate but the balance is very different).

I get why Israel is doing x, y and z. But I also get why the Palestinians are doing what they are.

Neither are right and therein lies the issue and why the only outcome is going to be a hell of a lot more deaths before anything remotely changes.

The majority of Israelis did not vote for him.

I have been really shocked by the attitudes of some people in response to the atrocities of the last few days. It is very unsettling.

There is a simple solution. Atheism.

This. I utterly deplore and condemn the actions of Hamas but anyone who believes Netanyahu sincerely wants peace is utterly deluded.

Believe me, I'm no friend of Hamas and I do NOT condone their behaviour in any way, shape or form!
I do also know that had the Israelis REALLY wanted peace they wouldn't keep re-electing Netanyahu as PM. That is not victim-blaming, but speaking uncomfortable truths against power.

@snygghygge your posts read very much like victim blaming and support of terrorism. Whatever the history, whatever side you believe, hamas' actions over the last few days have been violent terrorist acts.

I detest terrorists. They only cause problems and are not interested in a solution. I do not care what country,or religion terrorists they come from. They kill innocent people.

What makes you think you can police my language?
This conversation is pointless. More than sixty years have passed and Palestinians are STILL living in camps in historic Palestine and in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon.
The stark truth is that Israelis will NEVER ever be able to live in peace UNLESS they own up to the war crimes committed in the name of Zionism.
You clearly have no interest in a just peace - you just want to quiet the Palestinians.
I have nothing further to add to you on this dark day.

@snygghygge
When you start with the rehearsed soundbites "evil crimes" "setller-colonial ethnostate" rubbish, I know that there is no interest in a balanced understanding of both sides. Because there are plenty of "evil crimes" having been committed by the Plaestinians. My own grandparents were ethnically cleansed from Hebron in 1929, others were massacred.

I absolutely think it is wrong for Israel to control the West Bank (and this despite my grandparents coming from Hebron), even with the PA controlling much of the population. I would have preferred the settlements there never have been built and recognise them as an obstacle to any two state solution.

But:

1. there is no occupation of Gaza. It has a border with Egypt so Israel isn't surrounding it. Each and every last settler and soldier were evacuated in Gaza. And rather than show Israel that Palestinians were capable of creating a peaceful state, they VOTED in a terrorist gang. If elections were held tomorrow in the WB, polls show Hamas would win. So while many Palestinians don't support Hamas, most do.
2. If there is a peace process, however, flawed and you don't like the terms, the answer is not blowing up buses or starting a 2nd intifada. Terrorism has precipitated disaster for the Palestinians each and every time. Before the 2nd intifada, they would move freely to work in Israel, look at the situation now. I think the Palestinian cause and desire for self-determination is just and right. But Palestinians, not just Israelis, are leading to it being ever so further away from realisation. Palestinians are not some hapless victims but are also agents able to make decisiosn which affect the trajectory of change. And I assure that no good will come to them from the slaughter and kidnap of children and the elderly over the past few days (quite ironic when you talk about "paying for evil crimes")

I have stayed well away from Palestine for a long time and I can't speak for the Palestinians. What I can say is that many, many Palestinians do not agree at all with Hamas' methods and objectives.
I sincerely hope that a peaceful solution will be found - Palestinians AND Israelis deserve to live in peace with dignity.
Sadly, the occupation has lasted more than 60 - sixty!!! - years, so I'm not very hopeful. These are very dark days indeed

@snygghygge

If you don’t mind may I ask if you think Palestinians would be willing to come back tot he table to discuss a 2 state solution? Neither the Palestinians or the Israelies are going anywhere. Would it not be in the interest of everyone in the region to try to broker a genuine peace and then just leave each other alone? Blockades come down but secure borders .Because the impression I get is that Hamas will not stop and I’m not sure that will serve Gazan’s well.

Yes, I was studying in Palestine at the time. Why on earth would I lie about that?
I lived through the assassination of Rabin fearing Israeli reprisals in the Palestinian village where I stayed until it became clear that the assassin was indeed a Zionist fanatic.
That same year, I witnessed the Israeli occupying forces withdraw from Palestinian cities only to surround those very same cities, controlling who were allowed in and out. Palestinian towns where effectively turned into ghettos.
Every single day, I and my Palestinian classmates had to cross an armed Israeli military checkpoint simply to be able to attend classes at the local university. And close to 90 percent of the male university students had experienced random arrests and detainment in Israeli military prison without due process. So much for Israel being a democracy!
Despite the deeply flawed Oslo 'peace' process, the Israeli occupation has just continued on and on and on.
Unless the Israeli people begin to take responsibility for the evil crimes they have and continue to commit in order to preserve their apartheid ethnonationalist settler state there never will be peace.
But as I wrote before, it is my impression that the Israelis never really wanted peace. They merely wanted the Palestinians to be quiet. Clearly, that's not really working, and people on both sides of the conflict are paying a terrible price. #freepalestine

If you were really in Palestine at the time, you would have seen that there was a peace process. The establishment of the Palestinian Authority, the withdrawal of Israeli Civil Administration from wide areas of Palestinian territories. There was a process. It was far from perfect but there were channels and there was a pathway to peace. The Palestinians had a just cause for self determination and if they would have stuck to the peace process, I am confident that they would be in a very different place now compared to the very sad reality of what's going to happen. They could have turned Gaza into a showcase of what would happen if that had their own state. But they voted in Hamas, a violent terrorist gang with zero respect for any civil liberties. You can legitimately point fingers at Israel (and I do) but Palestine has fucked things up too and made massive massive mistakes throughout the last century.

Let's just think how many hospitals and bomb shelters could have been built with the money used just now to plan and attack Israeli civillians. What would have benefitted the Palestinains more?

I have read and that's why I know it's just hyperbole. It could apply to the post-1967 settlements where there is a civillian population moving into an occupied area and exerting control over the other population. But it certainly does not apply to Israel outside of the West Bank. And there are no settlers in Gaza at all. They all left and we saw what has happened since. Is this a glimpse of the future if we leave the WB?

Perhaps Palestinians need to take take some responsibility for the cataclysmic mistakes they have made. I fully accept that the creation of the State of Israel was a disaster for the Palestinians but in1947/48, with the refusal of the Arabs to accept partition and the presence a Jewsih political entity and homeland, it had reached an "us or them" sitution. And I'm glad it was us because we've seen exactly what would have hapenned if it had been "them".

Prior to the second intifada, Palestinians moved freely in Israel. They worked in israel, they drove their cars into Israel. So they weren't "locked up". the restrictions on movement to Israel began following the terrorirst attacks, especially during the second intifada.

But since Palestinian statehood and not the destruction of Israel is the goal (apparently), why was no State of Palestine ever established in WB and Gaza prior to 1967?

Of course, we all know that the answer is that a) Palestinian statehood had never been the goal previously, Palestine was a terriroty and not a national entity and even if the Arabs had won in 1948, Palestine would have been carved up between the Arab countries, and b) the goal was destruction of Israel and they still believed it was possible.

It's easy to say throw away tersm 'Oh, all Israelis are interested in is......" but that just shows that you dont' actually know Israelis or Israeli society and you're only interested in soundbites, like 'settler-colonialism'

I do remember. It was bonfire night. It felt in the 90s as though this and all conflicts could be solved eventually. I’m not sure now.

Yeah, and I was in Palestine at the time. It was a period of continued Israeli military occupation, random arrests, and illegal detention of Palestinian civilians living under draconian military rule. What we are currently witnessing is the uprising of people who have pitifully little to lose. Israelis have their own policy of continued military domination to thank for this whole mess. Every people have a right to self determination however inconvenient for the occupier

I think you need to read up on the concept of 'settler colonialism'.
As long as Zionists are unable to recognise the cataclysmic effects of al-Nakba and try to take some responsibility for the devastation of Palestinian lives there will - sadly - never be peace. But then most Israelis and Zionist were only ever interested in quiet, i.e. keeping Palestinians firmly locked up in the open-air jails of Gaza and the West Bank.

@Meshigenus

I was in Israel at that time. Just a little context, Hamas at the time was blowing up buses to stop the peace process moving ahead. Any Israeli alive then remembers. It was horrific. And then, of course, even that limping peace process was totally thrown out the window by Arafat launching the second initfada

It does feel like a lot of people are bringing this up to imply that it's Israeli's who have been unable to agree on peace, which is simply not true. Like you say, at that time terrorist attacks were rife. People should read some of the things Arafat was saying and doing :( They have factually rejected every peace agreement put to them.

I think that this post is incredibly bad taste when over 600 israelis have been murdered by Hamas terrorists

Agree. It smacks of "if only Israelis wanted peace". Which is rewriting history to a fairly worrying degree.

I was in Israel at that time. Just a little context, Hamas at the time was blowing up buses to stop the peace process moving ahead. Any Israeli alive then remembers. It was horrific. And then, of course, even that limping peace process was totally thrown out the window by Arafat launching the second initfada.

I think that this post is incredibly bad taste when over 600 israelis have been murdered by Hamas terrorists.