School refusing to provide translator

One thing I found worse than having no English was that the women were always chaperoned by husbands/male cousins to healthcare appts

Even if you have no common spoken language - it's still possible to show your bruises/injuries, mime or draw a picture of what's happening at home behind closed doors if you have some privacy

I'm an immigrant (although I've lived here for 15+ years). English is my 3rd language. Personally - if you choose to move to a country, you should integrate. Speaking the language is part of that.
It's not the school's problem the parents can't be bothered to learn English. I think even providing translators/interpreters for the first year is extremely generous.

It’s been an issue for years though eg Jewish communities not integrating fully etc.

The cultures I see who find it easier to integrate and learn English in England appear to be Eastern Europeans.

Slightly off-topic, but I've read a couple of pps using the phrase 'the school has failed (child)"

This always infuriates me as an ex-teacher because frankly, the school is often the only thing which hasn't failed a child.

I get so cross that no government or institution (particularly educationalists) are prepared to blame parents for anything. It's always someone/something else's fault, but never the parents who won't support their children. I realise you can't make inadequate parents do what they should be doing, but a little honesty and criticism would be good. Why is everyone so scared of them?

Similarly - some pps are telling us (what we already know) that some cultures are very restrictive in their attitudes to women, and resistant to adapting to the mores of a new country which they have actively chosen to live in. Why is no clear criticism made about this? Again, what are educationalists and institutions afraid of? If cultural practices are compatible with life in the UK - no problem. But if they are affecting the chances of women and the children of the family, then we should be confidently critical. I just have never understood why we are all so scared and mealy-mouthed.

But it's easier to blame schools and teachers, isn't it? From my experience as a teacher, they are always willing to kindly take on blame for all society's ills. And they're polite and generally not likely to scream abuse back at you if you criticise them. Schools and teachers in this country to an AMAZING job in difficult circumstances and should not have to take on every single problem and its attendant costs.

Incidentally - I've worked with children of various ethnic minorities and all the families have been brilliantly supportive and enthusiastic about their children's free education in this country. But clearly some are just not pulling their weight, from what I read on this thread, and that needs to be called out.

I’ve read the book thanks and worked round the corner from there for 6 years!

It really isn’t my issue if people don’t make any effort to integrate into the wider community, learn English, rely on children to translate and blame cultural norms.

If you read my previous posts you will see however I do have sympathy with women who are culturally stopped by husbands etc from learning English and working. And I also said more work needs to be done within the community so men including husbands understand the need for their wives to learn English and work, if they can.

Schools don’t have infinite resources though.
They provide support for the children who aren’t native English speakers, in OP’s case they also support the parents for the first year, but they can’t do it indefinitely.

Should would could... none of this helps the children from these segregated communities today. I recommend reading the book "Brick Lane".

I don't even disagree that withdrawing someof the provision is idiotic, especially stuff like letters where they're a templated resource that has already been created and is just sent out en mass anyway,

Unless the information is is the same for every class every year, someone still has look up the information and fill it in. In the case of PE kit mentioned above, finding out when is PE for every class. Then finding out how many letters in which languages are needed for each class. Then the cost of ink and paper for printing.

And assuming the staff were not otherwise sitting twiddling their thumbs, something else is not being done while they are doing this.

If a migrant through a law firm applying for remain in UK residency test etc then they have to fill in the forms themselves and take the test (can’t recall if it’s written, spoken or read now).

My Iranian lawyer boss told his clients they had to do the above if they wanted to pass the immigration remain in UK test. Same with Korean clients.

Well they must do, yes. Or they help each other with it. Or they get children to help with forms. My friend (Chinese/Vietnamese) said as a child she constantly helped her mum and dad to fill in forms as they couldn’t do it.

I’ve worked in a law firm with immigration and they had Korean and Iranian clients but most of the immigration clients had sponsors, eg wives etc.

I’m with you op, particularly given the costings you have supplied and the fact that they have templates and will be producing separate letters for the new children anyway.

The parents should learn English yes, but we don’t know their limitations and even if it is just laziness, I don’t think the kids should suffer as a result. It sounds like these kids are already from a deprived background, they will have enough disadvantages without their school adding to the list.

This does feel very unfair and divisive and I would be uncomfortable too.

No-one saying "the school has a responsibility to the child" seems to answer the question of "Why don't the parents have the same responsibility?"

They rarely do, milj1213, but then parental responsibility - as opposed to that of others - isn't always a welcome subject on here, and especially not when it involves those with some protected characteristic

And as for the comment that it would have looked better if the Head had taken a "How can we work on this" approach, how do we know they hadn't?
It wouldn't be the first time that provision had been offered and that folk chose not to use it, expecting that someone else would continue to pick up the pieces, and that applies to all communities

@GonnaGetGoingReturns

So, they know enough English to claim their benefits, then?

Would French schools provide me FOC French lessons

Yes. As discussed above, France offers state schooling in English, specialist teachers and classes for new arrivals with no knowledge of French, and free in-school French tuition for parents.

I know the french don't.
I think it's a hangover from colonialism I.e. immigrants seen as almost childlike in their lack of ability to do certain things and needing our help (as Top Nation).
When in fact we are too poor to provide this level of service and no longer TN at all.

I always wonder what other countries provide this type of thing in their schools.
If I moved to Spain would a Spanish school provide a translator
If I go to Italy would I get notes from
the school in English. Would French schools provide me FOC French lessons

I think the situation with that Polish kid being excluded is a tricky one.
Even though I generally agree with the head teacher’s approach, I do think that an interpreter could/ should have been engaged here, just because of how serious the situation is.
As for asking Polish speaking staff to help out - there was a thread on here couple of weeks ago where the OP was trying to help a new employee from outside the UK settle in and was wondering if a colleague from the same background as the new hire could help out.
Most posters were telling her either not to ask at all as it wasn’t the colleague’s job, or ask but definitely not assume the colleague would be willing or able to help.
I think the same applies here - just because some of the staff speak Polish doesn’t mean they can be/ wish to be interpreters in an exclusion meeting.

The op mentioned that a meeting was held (in English) to exclude a child which the Polish speaking mother did not understand. The head refused to allow any staff member in to translate even though there were staff who could have done so

So again, what was to stop the parent making their own arrangements instead of assuming the school would do it all? And as a PP just said, isn't the UK supposed to be more attractive to immigrants precisely because they can already speak some English?

I have to smile about asking other staff if they'd help with translation though, especially remembering a recent thread where there were howls of indignation at the very idea, with "Why should they be expected to?" flung around

Funny how things morph from one thread to another ...

I think the situation with that Polish kid being excluded is a tricky one.
Even though I generally agree with the head teacher’s approach, I do think that an interpreter could/ should have been engaged here, just because of how serious the situation is.
As for asking Polish speaking staff to help out - there was a thread on here couple of weeks ago where the OP was trying to help a new employee from outside the UK settle in and was wondering if a colleague from the same background as the new hire could help out.
Most posters were telling her either not to ask at all as it wasn’t the colleague’s job, or ask but definitely not assume the colleague would be willing or able to help.
I think the same applies here - just because some of the staff speak Polish doesn’t mean they can be/ wish to be interpreters in an exclusion meeting.

*Sausagenbacon

Is it a uk thing to view non-English speakers as unfortunates who can't be expected to make the effort (or have the intelligence) to learn English? And we're talking about people who have been here for over a year*

I think it is a worldwide thing. If you can’t communicate even on a basic level in the language of the country you have lived in for more than a year I think most people would think the same

Even on holiday you pick up the odd word so by the end of a couple of weeks you can ask for food and drink and work out a few signs.

Read my posts! Cultural norms can be challenged and changed but it takes time and patience with the community. Shouldn’t be left to the daughters to change it.
I'm not leaving it to the daughters to change it. It's a fact that they will speak English at school and obtain freedom from that. Unless they are married out of the country.
Some of their mothers will never have freedom, because their husbands won't allow them to learn English.
Part of challenging this is not to provide translators. I can see why you disagree with me, but I don't believe there is any hope for women who have been here for years and know no English.

I am a foreigner in a different country. I take a fluent friend with me for important meetings, schools , healthcare, tax office etc. When accuracy of understanding is important Schools are super stretched financially. It's on the parents to facilitate this not the school

No wonder schools are short of money if this kind of thing is expected!

If you've been here for several years you should have made the effort to learn the language. What an unbelievable cheek to think you can get away with that level of entitlement and lack of commitment to your new country - and that taxpayers will just keep stumping up!

For very new settlers, fair enough.

Who says nobody can talk about it? It is not the school's job to police it. It is the schools job to make sure a student's parents understand what is happening at school.

There's a different conversation about what immigrants should and shouldn't do but currently there is no law about learning the language and if there was it would have to come with national provision of lessons and encouragement to take them up. I don't think withdrawal of provision works to make people learn a language, I think it just makes people sink. But I'm sure most on this thread disagree with me.

That is stupid and dangerous. I have worked in the NHS for 30 years. Without interpreters, we would not be able to prescribe or treat people properly, consent them to procedures or do any preventative health work at all.

And there would be deaths and a greater burden on the health service.