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Original poster

School refusing to provide translator

765 replies

CapturedLeprechaun · 27/09/2023 22:19

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood.

The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation.

This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English.

Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken.

The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week.

School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to.

On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

OP posts:
Sausagenbacon · 30/09/2023 07:37

No.
Nobody is saying expats=good migrants=bad - again
If expats expected this they wouldn't, and shouldn't, get it.

Efacsen · 30/09/2023 07:29

Sausagenbacon · 30/09/2023 06:59

But nobody's claimed on the thread that British people are bothered to learn the local language when they live abroad.
Nobody.
It's not the point.
The point is .... should the education services have to provide translators/interpretors for you if you haven't learnt after a year's residency.

Well it is a point in as much as British expats and the non English speaking ?immigrant parents at this school behave in much the same way wrt local language acquisition

Also the two groups act similarly with respect to where/how they live - 'expat enclaves' vs ghetto-ised non-integrated communities

It's just normal human social behaviour not unique to these lazy entitled parents who have been vilified throughout this thread

It's the same old trope expats=good migrants=bad - again

gmor6787 · 30/09/2023 07:27

Why is it in this country we are willing to bend over backwards to accommodate people who move here for a better life but do absolutely nothing to integrate. You would not get the assistance to learn the language of the country you have moved to anywhere else. We had a place in Spain for 10 years so my husband and I learnt Spanish. It’s manners to speak to people in their own language. Teachers have enough to deal with these days without trying to teach children that can’t speak English. Surely the 20% in this particular school aren’t getting the full amount of education they would if 100% spoke English.

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 30/09/2023 07:21

Keepthecat · 30/09/2023 06:59

I think it's worth checking that it is not unlawful discrimination. It's possible this could be racial discrimination.

Why? They're not saying that they CANT have a translator, school are saying 'we don't have the money to do this forever for everyone ' so if one is needed the family need to provide.

Keepthecat · 30/09/2023 06:59

I think it's worth checking that it is not unlawful discrimination. It's possible this could be racial discrimination.

Sausagenbacon · 30/09/2023 06:59

But nobody's claimed on the thread that British people are bothered to learn the local language when they live abroad.
Nobody.
It's not the point.
The point is .... should the education services have to provide translators/interpretors for you if you haven't learnt after a year's residency.

GingerTulip · 30/09/2023 03:23

@TrudyProud I totally agree with you - in much of SE Asia (and I assume the Gulf) British and other foreigners living there simply don't learn the language at all. I have very few foreign friends here who can speak much Thai, and those who can are mostly married to locals. Even lots of people married to locals don't speak more than a few words. Just knowing numbers, directions, food, and a few other useful phrases genuinely puts my language level above most foreigners, which is shameful really.

When I arrived here, I remember thinking how ridiculous it was that people who've been here 10+ years can't even manage the basics, and I booked myself on a course my first summer to at least get to a level where I could be polite etc with locals. Then my mum came to visit so I couldn't make the course, and after a year being here and dealing with everyday life, including immigration and hospitals etc, I realised why people manage to NOT learn Thai! Still, I'm not proud of it and would definitely learn more if I intended to stay longer (this will be my last year here). It's not an excuse, but I also think the fact that Thai will not be useful to me anywhere outside Thailand, and my intention to only stay a few years, also made me much less motivated.

I lived in Latin America previously and had some Spanish when I arrived, but I was really motivated to improve and got to a really good level quickly and was able to integrate well. I will never integrate here and that is sad.

I don't say any of this to justify foreigners in the UK not learning English; rather, to disabuse people of the notion that Brits abroad learn the local language. If anything, we are probably the worst for staying in our bubbles and relying on employers/colleagues and helpful locals to get by. When I had a flat tyre in the middle of nowhere, alone with my children, I pulled up outside a little shop and the people there immediately helped me, called a man to change the tyre, offered drinks and snacks to my children etc. I phoned a Thai friend just so I had someone to translate if necessary but it wasn't needed as the people who helped me were amazing and didn't try to rip me off at all. I paid the guy a huge tip as he could easily have charged me triple and I would have had to pay it, as I just don't have the skills or knowledge to look after myself properly in this situation. If only people everywhere were as kind and understanding as these random Thai people were!

Yalta · 30/09/2023 01:01

AuxArmesCitoyens

*It's not a universal entitlement, provision is targeted to areas with large immigrant communities. Sections internationales are found all over the country: they are designed in part for foreign children in France in the short term, with combined teaching in French and their native language. Eighteen languages are on offer. There are also UPE2A, or unités pédagogiques pour élèves allophones, for children arriving with little or no French (there's a nice documentary about the students in one class here: https://www.allocine.fr/film/fichefilm_gen_cfilm=221636.html[. In our area of high immigration, primary children are also allowed one afternoon off French school a week to follow the UK curriculum at our local section internationale. In areas with high levels of parental illiteracy, schools can offer free French and literacy lessons: here for instance https://lecafedufle.fr/ouvrir-ecole-parents/

The point is that in areas such as that described by the OP, there absolutely is provision made for non-French speakers*

But even then not every parent, even if they live in an area where this is offered, it is only the illiterate who can access anything*

*Sausagenbacon

Is it a uk thing to view non-English speakers as unfortunates*

Seems like it is a French thing given the lessons for the parents seem to make out they won’t be able to use money or find there way around as well as being illiterate and not speaking French.

La Cour de Babel

Ils viennent d’arriver en France. Ils sont Irlandais, Serbes, Brésiliens, Tunisiens, Chinois ou Sénégalais... Pendant un an, Julie Bertuccelli a filmé les échanges, les conflits et les joies de ce groupe de collégiens âgés de 11 à 15 ans, réunis dans

https://www.allocine.fr/film/fichefilm_gen_cfilm=221636.html

Hoppysue · 30/09/2023 00:05

It’s just another cut!!! My school has lost nearly all teaching assistants this year so no intervention groups are taking place to help the children learn to read etc. Therefore money spent on parents should be cut before education

Scotland32 · 30/09/2023 00:04

Totally fair enough. If you moved to a country where you didn’t speak the language, would you expect to be provided with a translator for years on end?

CurlyhairedAssassin · 29/09/2023 23:48

Prettydress · 29/09/2023 19:08

Yes, it's the children that will suffer. 5 years is no time to assimilate if you are cocooned. Think of all the Brits in Spain who don't speak English. The school are creating a generation of English speakers. I'm sure if it was genuinely down to budget they could come up with a creative solution. Volunteer translators, get the kids in the highest year to translate letters as part of their English assignments. Get a bilingual admin in the office.

My children go to to a totally bilingual school in the UK. All information comes out in English and the home nation language. It's a priority of the school. Time not money on translation. It is possible.

A bilingual school is totally different to one in which many many different languages are spoken.

weeseee · 29/09/2023 23:28

I think this is very typical of what people expect when they come to Britain. I mean come on, you live here and you learn the language or YOU pay to have the service!

Tessabelle74 · 29/09/2023 23:10

Thisgroupneverceasestoamazeme · 29/09/2023 23:08

@Tessabelle74 I was referring to providing interpreters or providing translated materials.

Technically you’re correct but if the school want to actually work effectively and support children with EAL, particularly those who may be vulnerable due to attendance or having SEN (implicit in the fact the OP mentions the SENDCO involvement) it makes more sense to understand the barriers than to just make a blanket rule. In my experience, even if people speak enough English to get by day to day then more technical statutory processes are very difficult to navigate.

Then translation can be provided in that instance. There's no need to translate everything if people can't be bothered to learn the language their child is communicating in daily. I think a year cut off is more than reasonable.

Thisgroupneverceasestoamazeme · 29/09/2023 23:08

@Tessabelle74 I was referring to providing interpreters or providing translated materials.

Technically you’re correct but if the school want to actually work effectively and support children with EAL, particularly those who may be vulnerable due to attendance or having SEN (implicit in the fact the OP mentions the SENDCO involvement) it makes more sense to understand the barriers than to just make a blanket rule. In my experience, even if people speak enough English to get by day to day then more technical statutory processes are very difficult to navigate.

Thisgroupneverceasestoamazeme · 29/09/2023 23:08

@Tessabelle74 I was referring to providing interpreters or providing translated materials.

Technically you’re correct but if the school want to actually work effectively and support children with EAL, particularly those who may be vulnerable due to attendance or having SEN (implicit in the fact the OP mentions the SENDCO involvement) it makes more sense to understand the barriers than to just make a blanket rule. In my experience, even if people speak enough English to get by day to day the more technical statutory processes are very difficult to navigate in another language.

CrazyHamsterLady · 29/09/2023 22:58

I think it’s reasonable tbh. A year is plenty of time to be learning English, it shouldn’t be all on the school. How are the kids/parents proposing to be full members of the society if they don’t speak the language? Schools are on their knees financially and this is something that parents need to take responsibility for. A year’s worth of support is extremely generous. 🤷‍♀️

Tessabelle74 · 29/09/2023 22:57

Thisgroupneverceasestoamazeme · 29/09/2023 22:52

@Tessabelle74 Because they have a duty of care to their pupils and parents are entitled to a fair process when it comes to statutory procedures such as EHCP planning and legal action relating to school attendance. At the very least, aside from the ethical perspective, they need to evidence that they have worked with families in an inclusive way throughout any statutory process or they could find themselves in hot water later on if it did come to a prosecution etc.

An ECHP relates to the CHILD not a parent. As long as the CHILD is receiving an education the school has performed it's legal responsibility. Teaching PARENTS is nothing to do with the school.

Thisgroupneverceasestoamazeme · 29/09/2023 22:52

@Tessabelle74 Because they have a duty of care to their pupils and parents are entitled to a fair process when it comes to statutory procedures such as EHCP planning and legal action relating to school attendance. At the very least, aside from the ethical perspective, they need to evidence that they have worked with families in an inclusive way throughout any statutory process or they could find themselves in hot water later on if it did come to a prosecution etc.

NeedSomeHeadspace · 29/09/2023 22:50

I think the parents need to make an effort for their children, get off their backsides and learn English, and be very very grateful the school has supported them for at least the first year of attendance. The school has to pay for the translation services out of its own budget and tbh, I am astounded that over 80% of its pupils are non-English speaking. We are a complete basket case of a country!

Tessabelle74 · 29/09/2023 22:37

Thisgroupneverceasestoamazeme · 29/09/2023 18:30

I may be in the minority here but this feels uncomfortable to me. It doesn’t feel very inclusive. It’s not quite as black and white as ‘if I moved to another country I’d learn the language’ is it? Has anyone from school consulted with parents who don’t speak English and tried to understand the barriers to learning? Surely the school need to understand this better before coming up with a one size fits all solution. Maybe the lessons offered don’t fit with parents work patterns? Maybe they come from a culture where education is viewed differently and parents don’t understand the statutory/enforcement element? Do school understand much about the culture the families come from? Are there any staff who speak different languages. I know the area I live in recruit TAs/pastoral staff who speak other languages that are common in the school. Often they are parents with kids in the school themselves.

Thing is, saying ‘I wouldn’t dream of moving to another country without learning the language’ seems very reductive. You don’t actually know what you’d do if the situation was reversed and you had an opportunity for a better/safer life for your family. Classroom learning doesn’t work for a lot of people. Particularly if it’s not something they’re used or is not culturally relevant to them.

Explain how ANY of those things are a primary school's issue to solve though?

OspreyLambo · 29/09/2023 22:35

riceuten · 29/09/2023 22:04

I can see the milk of human kindness is out in strength today…all the clichés are rolling in, ‘economic migrants’, ‘don’t want to fit in’ (hugely ironic coming from English people) ‘should learn our language’ (if all the courses hadn’t been cut).

I agree that it’s almost always to do with diminishing resources, and this sort of thing should be centrally or at least LA funded.

You're doing the other cliché though - assuming that they're actually in need and not economic migrants , so #bekind.
Especially as in this case OP has given a list of languages and some have more privileged passports than British people post-Brexit.

Not all non-English speakers should be lumped into the same group. If they're refugees then fine they should be helped but why is it the government's responsibility to provide courses for the rest? Which the school is already doing BTW.

munner · 29/09/2023 22:24

I don't think it is unreasonable for parents to learn to speak and read English after being in this country for more than a year.

Bignanny30 · 29/09/2023 22:12

Schools have a budget and whilst they’re wasting it on translators then it’s not going on the children’s educational needs. If the children have been at the school for over a year (therefore in the country for over a year) and the parents still haven’t bothered to learn the language, then what does that say about their contribution to our country?!

riceuten · 29/09/2023 22:04

I can see the milk of human kindness is out in strength today…all the clichés are rolling in, ‘economic migrants’, ‘don’t want to fit in’ (hugely ironic coming from English people) ‘should learn our language’ (if all the courses hadn’t been cut).

I agree that it’s almost always to do with diminishing resources, and this sort of thing should be centrally or at least LA funded.

OspreyLambo · 29/09/2023 21:59

Honestwife · 29/09/2023 20:28

I don’t think many people realise that the pupil premium funding that the school is getting is because of these children from EAL families esp when you are saying majority of the school is EAL. I would take this to the school governors meeting

The school isn't washing their hands of it though. They're providing English lessons for parents. They might also be spending it on extra help for the kids, who might find it much harder to learn English if they only speak it at school + nobody to help with homework etc.

It's just translation which they've identified as a drain on resources.

Especially as we have apps and things which are voice activated. You don't even need to be able to read! Google Lens can read something out for you just point it at the page and the camera will automatically pick it up and read it out.