Page 26 | School refusing to provide translator

CapturedLeprechaun · 2023-09-27T21:19:59+00:00

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood. The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation. This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English. Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken. The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week. School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to. On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

EBearhug · 28/09/2023 01:59

I think that if they get a year of lessons and interpreters, it's not unreasonable ' that'spretty generouscompared with most schools, i would assume. If the school already has translated letters, it seems unreasonable not to use those, but then I guess you have set s precedent and people will always expect it.

I do not think Welsh is quite the same, because there are very few monoglot Welsh speakers, especially over the age of 5. (I am currently at uwch level as a Welsh learner, so I'd be fine. Or at least, I'd get by.)

I can't imagine going to a country and not picking up the language. Even with less than a week's holiday in places like Budapest, I usually find I'm starting to pick up some words, like "street" and "restaurant" and if I were living there, I'd want to understand what was going on around me.

SawnFreshWoodShavings · 28/09/2023 01:53

I’ve worked for two companies who wont offer translation services, and we deal with non English speakers, due to cost. So we turn people away now.

jlpth · 28/09/2023 01:49

Seems like the school could keep a load of stock letters in many languages that can just be reused forever eg

bring PE kit on M T W Th Fr
written in several languages, teacher just has to circle days

trip on Monday, bring coat (or teacher an circle from a list of provisions like hat or whatever.

i can’t imagine any school having enough money for translators.

by year 2 or whatever, the school will have taught the child basic reading, so I guess if letters are written in very basic English with pictures, then the child will be able to tell the parents what it says.

ladykale · 28/09/2023 01:36

Elvis1956 · 27/09/2023 22:27

Because if you live in the UK surely you must speak English. How much of the schools budget is being spent on kids who have been in the UK for a while but who's parents have made no effort to learn English and don't speak English at home to their children.
Why should my child's education be impacted by someone who has moved to the UK for(mostly) economic reasons but had made no effort to integrate themselves or their children...it just feeds into the narrative that they are here for benefits not to work, because without English how can they get a job?

So you say this to all the Brits who live in Spain and can't speak a word of Spanish?

Yalta · 28/09/2023 01:33

Have you ever thought that these people would love to be able to communicate to others? It's exceptionally isolating not being able to speak the native language

After 5 years I think if someone wants to learn the language and communicate with others then they would be at least
be making some discernible progress

I don’t see how not being able to read or write in your native language would impact your ability to learn another language even if it was just verbal communication so you can ask someone to read the letter.

I think the school have done a huge amount to help people but some people don’t want to communicate with anyone outside their community.

Viviennemary · 28/09/2023 01:31

People could bring their own translators or set up a voluntary scheme.Can't blame the school if money is tight.

CrappyBarbara · 28/09/2023 01:09

Elvis1956 · 27/09/2023 22:27

Because if you live in the UK surely you must speak English. How much of the schools budget is being spent on kids who have been in the UK for a while but who's parents have made no effort to learn English and don't speak English at home to their children.
Why should my child's education be impacted by someone who has moved to the UK for(mostly) economic reasons but had made no effort to integrate themselves or their children...it just feeds into the narrative that they are here for benefits not to work, because without English how can they get a job?

What are “(mostly) economic reasons”? Just curious.

babysharkdoodoodedoodedoo · 28/09/2023 00:57

And yes, the ideal should be to learn the language. No excuse not to with all these free apps and websites these days - tutors aren’t even needed. I learned our local language using a free app!

babysharkdoodoodedoodedoo · 28/09/2023 00:55

I’m an expat in a non English speaking country and I think the school have been more than reasonable! The parents should have made an effort to pick up the basic language within a year and of course they don’t have the budget to pay for a translator for those parents who don’t make an effort! When we have issues at school with language we simply use Google translate. It’s really not a big deal. Even letters can be translated using an app which allows your to photograph text and convert it to your native language. These translators are often very accurate these days and when there are small errors, it’s easy to figure out what was meant. I can’t believe the school was paying for a translator and not the parents in the first place.

Original poster

CapturedLeprechaun · 28/09/2023 00:45

Gillbil · 28/09/2023 00:29

I'm with you, the kids are going to be the ones worse off.
Pp are talking about budget, which I get but if 80% of pupils parents use this service it could actually have an impact on whether the school will even be around in 2/3years time.

For me it doesn't sit right because it feels very exclusionary and i suppose some could argue racist.
Also the Head teacher and English speaking parents won't feel the brunt of this, it will be the bilingual teachers and the kids, who will be under more strain because of HTs choice.
Isn't supporting the teachers worth the expense?

Has the school actually reached out to the parents and suggested they contribute to this service as an added opt in with school fees so the school dont actually have to pay for it?

Yes, it feels like it has xenophobic (wrong word?!) undertones to it, rather than "budget".

Like I said, 40% of the pupils are FSM. It means that the school gets an approx £300K EXTRA A YEAR in pupil premium funding. The translator phone service costs last year was £1.5K, the rest is done through staff members translating, so it's hard to put a "cost" on that. But if pupil premium funding is meant to be spent on ensuring these vulnerable pupils can access education in the same way as other pupils, translating services seems a good use of money to me.

Also, I dispute that the head is entirely doing it for budget reasons. If a letter about a class trip is going out, and little Jonny moved from Poland 6 months ago, he will get the letter in Polish. Little Anna in the same class, who moved here 18 months ago and whose parents also only speak Polish, will only get the letter in English (despite the fact that there is a translated copy available because it's been done for Jonny!) as the school rule is "after 1yr you will not be given a translated letter, you need to do it yourself".

Ditto for headlice letters etc. If the school are giving it to some kids in their languages and have these letters available, it makes sense to give it to all kids, because that's a hell of a lot more likely to eradicate the headlice if the parents understand what they are reading!

I think the Head is of the opinion "not learning English is lazy, so tough", with no thought about why these families might not have learned English yet (being isolated by a spouse/unable to read or write in their own language etc).

But as I said, my kids left the school YEARS ago and I'm leaving the role at Christmas, so maybe this is a battle I just don't fight, and leave the school to it.

OP posts:

NumberTheory · 28/09/2023 00:42

I think the governing body should refer this policy change to a lawyer. I would be concerned that it might amount to indirect discrimination on the grounds of race since it is bound to have a more adverse impact on people of different national origins. As governors you should also consider - do you need and equality impact assessment for this change in policy?

From a utilitarian perspective, the governing body should be asking - is the school going to improve the outcomes it’s scored on if it spends this translation money on other things? Or is the lack of communication going to lead to poorer outcomes and additional expenses that are not ameliorated by the freed up funding?

From a more general ethical perspective, on being annoyed at the parents because they haven’t learnt English despite living here -
I have a bit of sympathy with this, though would point out that it isn’t always an easy decision to move country and learning a new language later in life is extremely daunting for most people. But the people you’re serving are the children, not the parents. And the children are not responsible for their parents’ lack of action to learn English. The ones whose parents don’t learn English are likely to be hindered by that and to have that disadvantage compounded by the school refusing to take steps to communicate clearly seems unfair. If I were in charge of policy on a regional or national level I’d be interested in funding research to see if such a policy would actually encourage more parents to learn English and so improve outcomes, but I don’t think that’s a position you can reasonably take unless there is actually evidence it would work like that.

Waffle78 · 28/09/2023 00:39

Insommmmnia · 27/09/2023 23:26

I'm thinking of all the English people who move to Wales, some of whom refuse to learn Welsh, respond to job adverts with abuse when it asks for applicants to be able to speak Welsh, complain about local meetings like parish councils being conducted in Welsh and insist on it being done in English and who would throw an absolutely hissy fit if school letters were only sent in Welsh and I wonder where all these MNs are who would absolutely learn the language of the country they are in if they lived there.

I wonder whether they would have the same response if schools in Wales started refusing to send out bilingual letters because it's faster and therefore cheaper to just send them in welsh.

I've got family that moved to Wales. They've admitted themselves they have given up trying to learn the language.

Tryingmybestadhd · 28/09/2023 00:32

Pootle23 · 27/09/2023 22:26

Honestly, yes it does. Would you move to a foreign speaking Country with children at school and not bother to learn the language?

Five years and not learnt any English? Especially when the school offers lessons.

if the parents want a translator, they should pay for it…as we would have to other Countries.

Clearly you don’t know many immigrant English families ,English folk lives in Spain , Portugal , Greece , Cyprus , Italy etc for decades and don’t speak the language at all ! And all of the above countries offer a translator if needed for school , hospital etc

Waffle78 · 28/09/2023 00:32

I do agree they should be learning to speak the language. I was at school with a little Korean boy. With him being in nursery so young he picked up English quite quickly. But he also learnt his parents to speak English.

PandaExpress · 28/09/2023 00:31

I agree with others who've said these parents need to find a way to translate communications themselves. Budgets are tight. If I moved to a country and didn't speak the language, I wouldn't expect that countries education system to pay to translate stuff for me.

Gillbil · 28/09/2023 00:29

I'm with you, the kids are going to be the ones worse off.
Pp are talking about budget, which I get but if 80% of pupils parents use this service it could actually have an impact on whether the school will even be around in 2/3years time.

For me it doesn't sit right because it feels very exclusionary and i suppose some could argue racist.
Also the Head teacher and English speaking parents won't feel the brunt of this, it will be the bilingual teachers and the kids, who will be under more strain because of HTs choice.
Isn't supporting the teachers worth the expense?

Has the school actually reached out to the parents and suggested they contribute to this service as an added opt in with school fees so the school dont actually have to pay for it?

TommyJoesMummy · 28/09/2023 00:26

.

user1477391263 · 28/09/2023 00:22

There are many many reasons why people can't learn a different language. Maybe they never went to school, and cannot read and write in their own language or maybe their family were murdered or hometown bombed and they have ptsd. Maybe they don't want to be here? This would just push them further away and make them less likely to engage.

Other than people who are actually non-verbal, nobody "can't" learn a second language as an adult; rather the degree of proficiency they are able to acquire varies. I get that it's harder for some, but they need to try. Immigrants vary in personality as much as everyone else, and I've seen some very lazy people among the foreign immigrants in the country where I life; some people really don't try very hard if they know that a language nanny will be there helping them out!

user1477391263 · 28/09/2023 00:19

I'm a permanent foreign resident in a non-English speaking country. I think the school is being reasonable. There are only so many resources to go round. Parents need to get to grips with English as quickly as possible, and make use of Google translate and other resources to get the gist of things when there are things they cannot understand. People who don't want to do this should not migrate to another country - it is part of the deal. And English is increasingly spoken in most parts of the world; in cities at least around the world, it's the norm, more and more, for people under 50 to speak at least a bit of English even before they migrate anywhere.

(By the way, the people attending meetings are interpretors not translators!)

KeepTheTempo · 28/09/2023 00:19

Totaly · 27/09/2023 23:59

Education should put children at the forefront of every decision. This decision is divisive

You can’t put kids first without the money to pay for teachers. Caretakers, cleaners, cooks etc

If this is a poor school with large numbers of FSM - then the school will be poorer as they receive lower funding from parents.

If parents want an interpreter, then they find one or pay for one.

You can’t expect and English education with tout speaking the language.

Agree about speaking the language.
But you don't seem to understand how school funding works. It comes from the government, not parents, and they actually get an extra of £1320 per per primary child /£935 per secondary child per year in Pupil Premium for children on FSM, as their families are usually less able to contribute to school expenses/trips/etc, and as many will have additional needs for support. They need to account for this money, and perhaps a translator was a good use of funding in the past, but now isn't the best way to meet pupils' needs.

Dropthedonkey · 28/09/2023 00:16

Tinkerbyebye · 28/09/2023 00:11

Why is it the schools problem? After a year the child should be able to speak English and can translate

why is it that we provide translators free for everything? Live in other countries, you pay for a translator, or learn the language

sounds good use of money by the school to me

The child can translate? Can't see any problems with this at all..?
"so, your son is one of the worst students I've ever taught"
"mum, he's saying I am his no.1 student and should go to Cambridge".

RoseAndRose · 28/09/2023 00:15

When the money runs out, then you can't afford everything.

The level of support you are offering, and will continue to offer all new arrivals for their first year is admirable, and I hope that at least some of the parents, and nearly all the pupils get a good level of English and/or familiarity with tech translation tools.

Lecc · 28/09/2023 00:15

GorillaInBikini · 27/09/2023 23:57

It's all very well saying they should learn English, but how? And if they don't, it's the children who suffer.

I understand your uneasiness. Is there scope to explore use of voluntary translation services - putting a call out to bilingual parents? Reusing past translated letters?

It's tough, I get it. I sit on a public sector board and there is finite money and seemingly infinite need.

Go outside to the shops, the doctor, dentist, school, watch TV, listen to the radio or a podcast or an audiobook, go to the free classes the school put on, go to mother and toddler group, playgroup, playground, pick up your phone and watch countless YouTube videos, go and see a film at the cinema, use Duolingo, visit the library, chat to parents at the school gates.....etc etc etc

KeepTheTempo · 28/09/2023 00:14

Insommmmnia · 27/09/2023 23:26

I'm thinking of all the English people who move to Wales, some of whom refuse to learn Welsh, respond to job adverts with abuse when it asks for applicants to be able to speak Welsh, complain about local meetings like parish councils being conducted in Welsh and insist on it being done in English and who would throw an absolutely hissy fit if school letters were only sent in Welsh and I wonder where all these MNs are who would absolutely learn the language of the country they are in if they lived there.

I wonder whether they would have the same response if schools in Wales started refusing to send out bilingual letters because it's faster and therefore cheaper to just send them in welsh.

That's whataboutery, given that only about 18% of the Welsh population (most of whom were born in Wales) speaks Welsh, under 15% can also read and write, and only about half of these Welsh speakers claim to be fluent.

Tinkerbyebye · 28/09/2023 00:11

Why is it the schools problem? After a year the child should be able to speak English and can translate

why is it that we provide translators free for everything? Live in other countries, you pay for a translator, or learn the language

sounds good use of money by the school to me