Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

School refusing to provide translator

765 replies

CapturedLeprechaun · 27/09/2023 22:19

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood.

The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation.

This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English.

Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken.

The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week.

School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to.

On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

OP posts:
Ozziedream · 28/09/2023 07:10

Google translate is absolutely incredible and more that sufficient for “bring PE kit on Wednesday” . I support translators in hospital when it’s life or death but in schools where it’s not time or life critical, and funding is scarce, I completely support the school’s decision.

loislovesstewie · 28/09/2023 07:08

It's too expensive as others have said, I worked in the public sector before retirement. On any day I could deal with umpteen people who either spoke no English or who had no competency in the language. It was costly and time consuming to get an interpreter, if letters had to be given in a different language it cost more. I dealt with several people who spoke languages that were rare and getting an interpreter for those languages demanded booking in advance. One language ,there was only one person on the books of the agency who spoke that language. If he wasn't available we were stuck. Yes,I know English isn't easy to learn,but honestly the public sector can't continue to do it for ever.

MentholLoad · 28/09/2023 07:06

hmm, my kids attended schools with high rate of non-English speaking parents. I am not aware that they paid for translation services. it was done via staff and family/friends. in the face of it, I think that's an ok approach and financially sensible. BUT, from what you have said, it sounds like the HT is motivated more by 'fuck you, you should learn to speak English'?

tbh, I'm more horrified that he is taking a zero tolerance approach to absences. I think fining and imprisoning parents is grotesque

DeKraai · 28/09/2023 07:05

Reading your email about costs though, are letters actually still sent out rather than emailed or put on a school app? Because if the foreign language ones (translation made for Johnny not Anna) were online then that would be easy, surely. Also if correspondence is all electronic then it's easy to copy and paste into Google translate (I know you can take a photo/scan live but copy paste is still the best). Assuming Google translate is good for their languages.

The issue about native literacy levels or even being able to write Latin script are very valid. The thing is, it's not the school's responsibility to teach parents this. It's a bit like the police refusing to attend mental health crises: as it's not their task, they aren't given budget or sufficient training for doing it. It also masks the actual issue. It could be that by stopping filling this gap it's painful in the short term but actually highlights the issue and possibly funding can be allocated to someone who can adequately tackle the problem. And if anybody thinks these parents should integrate, then it's something that will require some money and expertise to achieve.

Flopsythebunny · 28/09/2023 07:04

Dorisbonson · 28/09/2023 05:57

Wow, absolutely disgusting that people move to a country and accept free education and healthcare and presumably other benefits and don't learn the language.

The UK is absolutely mad to pay for this.

This is one of the reasons that so many economic migrants want to come here. We are seen as a soft touch.

Sehenswürdigkeiten · 28/09/2023 06:57

Roja7 · 27/09/2023 22:51

I don't think you are being unreasonable to be concerned.

I can understand why the school is having to do this with budget cuts but there are ways around this eg putting information on a webpage and ensuring the website has translation tools.

Unfortunately I think a post like this attract all the types of people who have never lived abroad, or been an immigrant or have had to learn language to a fluency enough to deal with bureaucracy (and who all think if you are in England, you must speak English but would never think of learning Hindi or Urdu if they moved to India).

Like some colonial hangover

I would actually learn the language of my new country if I planned to stay there, don't assume everyone expects English to be spoken everywhere just because they think people moving to the UK should attempt to learn it.

Flopsythebunny · 28/09/2023 06:57

CasperGutman · 28/09/2023 06:53

My first thought was that this was not unreasonable. Why would the parents not speak English? Why should the school pay for translators?

Then I realised that I moved to Wales twelve years ago. My child attends a Welsh medium school. Along with a third of the parents, I don't speak Welsh. I've picked up a few words - enough that I'm quite pleased with myself, to be honest - but not enough to follow a parents' evening o'r read aetter about a school trip. Luckily for me, every letter is bilingual and every meeting etc. at the school is in Welsh first then English. I'm very reliant on this and would be a bit lost without it.

On this basis, I'm a bit conflicted.

Don't be conflicted. Only 28% of people who were born and raised in Wales can speak Welsh and even less can read and write Welsh

nevynevster · 28/09/2023 06:56

All these people who say "just learn English it's easy" .. English is not easy actually. It's got a lot of irregularities and if you speak a completely different language it can be tough. I speak several languages and also lived abroad with DC in a country with a tough language to learn (different alphabet as well) and I struggled to read after 3 years of classes (admittedly was working so only did a couple lessons a week) and my reading age was around that of an 8 year old. Speaking/comprehension was better and I absolutely could have coped with "PE kit on a Thursday type" conversations but I would not have been able to have a detailed conversation about my DC and learning challenges for example.
I borrowed friends and colleagues for important conversations e.g medical.

So in answer to your post @CapturedLeprechaun I think the school has to make savings where it can and this seems a reasonable suggestion. However, I think the school should continue to provide the service IF the parents are unable to find someone to help and IF the conversation is on something that is complex and non standard or sensitive. I think the risk of not being able to have these conversations properly is too high.
For standard stuff they can rely on previous copies of letters and/or apps and that is quite reasonable.

Flopsythebunny · 28/09/2023 06:55

Insommmmnia · 27/09/2023 23:26

I'm thinking of all the English people who move to Wales, some of whom refuse to learn Welsh, respond to job adverts with abuse when it asks for applicants to be able to speak Welsh, complain about local meetings like parish councils being conducted in Welsh and insist on it being done in English and who would throw an absolutely hissy fit if school letters were only sent in Welsh and I wonder where all these MNs are who would absolutely learn the language of the country they are in if they lived there.

I wonder whether they would have the same response if schools in Wales started refusing to send out bilingual letters because it's faster and therefore cheaper to just send them in welsh.

My grandparents are Welsh but don't speak Welsh, my mother is Welsh but doesn't speak Welsh, I'm half Welsh and dont speak Welsh.
Only 28% of Welsh people can speak Welsh 😂

usernother · 28/09/2023 06:55

Using translators in schools and in LA's cost a fortune. Getting letters and forms translated in other languages is very expensive. I know, I used to book the translators and send off literature to be translated. I'm in full agreement with the school. Sometimes parents can bring other family members or friends to translate if they want to. I worked with the parents of some children who'd been in this country for many, many years and hadn't learned any English.

MaggieBsBoat · 28/09/2023 06:54

I am a non-native speaker of the country I live in and it would be laughable for them to provide translation services at all, let alone after the first 6 months. They need to learn the language!!
There are lots of non-native speakers here due to wars etc and the kids get extra lessons but the parents need to step up. It’s not the school‘s job for goodness sake. They need to do it for their kids and to be happier and more integrated. It’s not rocket science!

CasperGutman · 28/09/2023 06:53

My first thought was that this was not unreasonable. Why would the parents not speak English? Why should the school pay for translators?

Then I realised that I moved to Wales twelve years ago. My child attends a Welsh medium school. Along with a third of the parents, I don't speak Welsh. I've picked up a few words - enough that I'm quite pleased with myself, to be honest - but not enough to follow a parents' evening o'r read aetter about a school trip. Luckily for me, every letter is bilingual and every meeting etc. at the school is in Welsh first then English. I'm very reliant on this and would be a bit lost without it.

On this basis, I'm a bit conflicted.

Poppyblush · 28/09/2023 06:53

Schools have no funds and interpreters are super expensive so this is a fair decision. People need to learn English if they live here.

Sehenswürdigkeiten · 28/09/2023 06:53

madeinmanc · 27/09/2023 22:34

The reason you are all thinking Google Translate is wonderful and the solution is that you will have been translating into English, the language which has benefitted from the most research and funding. Don't make the mistake of assuming it's similarly accurate translating into lesser spoken languages (relative to English).

That's surely another reason for the parents to be more proactive learning basic English then.

Picturethat · 28/09/2023 06:53

At my dc's primary school in Scotland there were 46 languages spoken. Not sure how on earth a school would provide that many translators!

1984Winston · 28/09/2023 06:52

My family moved overseas and I went to the local school, fair enough a lot of people spoke English but we wouldn't have expected them to pay for a translator, it was my parents decision to move there after all, we all learned the language.

cansu · 28/09/2023 06:51

Maybe the school should do things on a case by case basis. If a family says I can't get this translated or I don't understand this they could help but not as an expected every document service.

DeKraai · 28/09/2023 06:51

DeKraai · 28/09/2023 06:20

Well this is very interesting. I'm on the other side of this as I live abroad and I agree that if you live somewhere you need to learn the language. Unfortunately I'm one of a handful of tens of thousands of Brits living here who thinks that! The British community expects teachers, doctors, dentists, government workers, nurses etc to all speak to them in English. Despite this many even consider themselves integrated!

The 6 month limit and the 1 lesson a week don't dovetail. One lesson a week isn't enough to become proficient.

Either increase the translation to a year, or increase the lessons to at least two a week.

You can look at the European language framework which details language levels (A1 being beginner, C2 being university educated mother tongue) and how long it takes to reach the levels. To understand school communication would be about B1, possibly B2 if it's longer, and definitely B3 for parents' evenings.

Sorry B2 for parents' evenings. Typo (there is no B3!).

Sehenswürdigkeiten · 28/09/2023 06:50

If funds are limited this does seem a reasonable place to start. English lessons are provided and to have not even attempted to make some sort of start with the basics after 1 year shows lack of willing on the parents part. Will some of the (older) children be able to read the notes perhaps?

Rewis · 28/09/2023 06:49

Has the school received extra finding in order to keep the service and now they want to use money elsewhere? Or do they just have a basic schooling budget like everyone else?

Caspianberg · 28/09/2023 06:47

I think it’s reasonable.
we live abroad, it’s all in local language. Very little English locally as we aren’t in a city.
At anything we go to it’s always in local language and governmental actually aren’t allowed to use English officially even if they speak it. We have to either translate ourselves or bring another person with us to translate if needed.
At parents evening we just don’t understand 100% but get 80%, and then everyone gets print out or email again with info ( in local language), so I can double check at home with more time or translate myself anything I don’t understand.

HikingforScenery · 28/09/2023 06:47

CapturedLeprechaun · 28/09/2023 00:45

Yes, it feels like it has xenophobic (wrong word?!) undertones to it, rather than "budget".

Like I said, 40% of the pupils are FSM. It means that the school gets an approx £300K EXTRA A YEAR in pupil premium funding. The translator phone service costs last year was £1.5K, the rest is done through staff members translating, so it's hard to put a "cost" on that. But if pupil premium funding is meant to be spent on ensuring these vulnerable pupils can access education in the same way as other pupils, translating services seems a good use of money to me.

Also, I dispute that the head is entirely doing it for budget reasons. If a letter about a class trip is going out, and little Jonny moved from Poland 6 months ago, he will get the letter in Polish. Little Anna in the same class, who moved here 18 months ago and whose parents also only speak Polish, will only get the letter in English (despite the fact that there is a translated copy available because it's been done for Jonny!) as the school rule is "after 1yr you will not be given a translated letter, you need to do it yourself".

Ditto for headlice letters etc. If the school are giving it to some kids in their languages and have these letters available, it makes sense to give it to all kids, because that's a hell of a lot more likely to eradicate the headlice if the parents understand what they are reading!

I think the Head is of the opinion "not learning English is lazy, so tough", with no thought about why these families might not have learned English yet (being isolated by a spouse/unable to read or write in their own language etc).

But as I said, my kids left the school YEARS ago and I'm leaving the role at Christmas, so maybe this is a battle I just don't fight, and leave the school to it.

Show quote history

I was agreeing with the general consensus until i read your post. After seeing you put the costs in context, it does seem unreasonable. All children in the school often benefit from extra funding. It seems like The Head is not considering the potential impact, fully.

Many children of immigrants have been forced to translate for their parents for a long time. It should not be the case. There are instances where discussions are better held between the adults but can’t happen if the child is the translator.

Many parents might be able to use Google translate but there are others who will struggle due to being illiterate or have a learning difficulty, etc etc. Hopefully, they can make exceptions for these parents

GeneralLevy · 28/09/2023 06:47

Also, if you moved to my family country or a neighbouring one to any reasonable sized town you could easily exist in English. Every ATM or ticket machine would translate, most shops you’d have English offered, libraries would have English books and providing you were worth it it would be tolerated at work. You’d have schools with English offered with some state support, or completely private schools. You could claim all official documents in English as the state recognises it as one of the official options.

It’s not a one way road for a lot of the world that just England translates, for all those who are saying they’ve never seen it.

cansu · 28/09/2023 06:47

The school cannot afford to keep doing this. How much does translation cost? Consider actual fees plus the cost of any staff members spending time doing this. The parents need to be accessing English lessons so they can fully participate or they need to use apps or friends to help them.

Greenberg2 · 28/09/2023 06:43

Tryingmybestadhd · 28/09/2023 00:32

Clearly you don’t know many immigrant English families ,English folk lives in Spain , Portugal , Greece , Cyprus , Italy etc for decades and don’t speak the language at all ! And all of the above countries offer a translator if needed for school , hospital etc

Show quote history

I'm sure that's true. But you seem to be under the impression that most of us would see that as reasonable that way round. I certainly wouldn't. I can't bear the little Englanders who live in their enclaves overseas and expect everyone to pander to them.

The reason it might be easier to offer them a translator is just luck though. They happen to speak a language which is many people's second language. I doubt if those schools and hospitals could magic up a Dutch, Japanese, Korean, Serbo Croat or Welsh speaking translator as easily.

It may be difficult for people to learn English themselves to a fluency level after six months but many people would have access to other friends and family who could help. Personally I would rather the budget went on feeding and teaching the pupils themselves rather than translating for their parents.

Swipe left for the next trending thread