School refusing to provide translator

I agree with the head’s decision - a year of translations is very generous actually. In what other country would you receive this if you were to move there?!

For the PP’s bringing up Brits living in Spain, I would say that it’s equally unacceptable for them to not bother learning Spanish, why would it be any different? And if their children attended a Spanish school, you can be sure as hell they wouldn’t be getting letters translated into English ffs.

yeah yeah, my husband learnt English when he moved here too. I know loads of people that HAVE learnt English on moving here. and I know people who haven't for whatever reason. but if there is a letter already created in their language being sent to other parents at no cost, why WOULDN'T you just send it to them?? why would you just be a wanker just for the sake of it. to make their day a bit more difficult and teach them a lesson?

I think the recurrent insistence that immigrants who don't learn English "can't be bothered" is pretty xenophobic.

The majority of immigrants who speak little to no English are women. The barriers to learning are often gender based, such as caring responsibilities preventing them attending classes or making it harder to integrate into a new community to practice their new language. There is also the level of existing literacy in their native language, which again is likely to be lower in women depending on their home country. Functional illiteracy may prevent you from knowing the class exists in the first place, and have more difficulty learning whilst there. There may also be familial opposition - if your husband prevents you from attending classes then you cannot learn.

If these women and mothers are the women who communicate with school (and if, for example, your husband has prevented you from learning english due to your need to stay home and be responsible for the children) then yes, there is more likely to be a language barrier.

The actual issue of school funding a translator is different as if the money isn't there, then they can't. But there's some pretty crappy attitudes on this thread!

wow your head is an arsehole.

I totally get that he can no longer pay for translation services. I get that budgets are tight, but the examples you have given are actually shocking.

letters exist but we won't send them out
staff members who could translate are not allowed in the meeting for a child being excluded!!

These are deliberately provocative moves which will disempower the parents and it is the childrnen who will suffer.

I am an ex governor. I would kick back hard against this, that the school will support every parent as far as it is able with the resources they have, so if we have a letter in that language we will send it out. If we don't and can't afford to make a new one, then parents will need to use google translate etc.

Any meeting of concern (eg to exclude a child) school should make every effort to provide a member of staff, and if they can't pay for that then they should be asking mum to bring someone who can translate.

our community is multi lingual, there are often friends and relatives who have better english and can help if given enough warning to come in.
Pehaps their last paid for translation job could be a generic letter which says - you must attend xx meeting and bring a translator!

I have also lived overseas so I do see the other side, I always assumed it was up to me to either understand or to take a translator with me, and that included helath appointments

What a sane, rational and clear post @PumpkinSoup21 .

*apply not able

The school has probably been enabling the parents and given them comfort that there isn’t need to learn the language.

school budgets are also cut to the bone.

but there must be a compromise surely or a transition? There are clear messages that go out from the school that are standard like pe on cans y day. Could they not just have these translated so messages can be sent - language wouldn’t change that much year on year. Also every year there are standard letters, could these not be translated as a template and a date (for example for parents evening) be inserted as necessary?

The responses on this thread are bizarre and make a whole host of uninformed assumptions about people’s circumstances.

From your explanation there is one point that I would focus on as a governor. The proposal is to withdraw even support that can be provided at no additional cost (I.e. the letters that already exist in translation. That specific part of the proposal therefore has nothing to do with the budget. In fact you could even argue it will add costs as staff will need to spend time removing people from mailing lists. The only reason for doing that therefore is if the school: (a) agrees that it is the school’s duty to apply negative pressure to families regarding language learning (so not just positive opportunity like language classes but withdrawal of an existing service AND (b) that this is an effective means to apply that pressure (I.e. they have some evidence that withdrawing this provision will eventually result in an increasing language proficiency amongst families rather than, say, a breakdown of communication between school and home)

It is entirely appropriate for the governing body to discuss in detail those two points and decide whether this is the right way forward.

Where there is an extra cost for translation then the two points above still able but there is the added factor of budget. The decision about these steps should therefore include discussion of the points above and should consider concrete figures about cost as well as the views of staff who have acted as translators, local agencies who work with non-English speaking communities, and families themselves.

In short, we can argue all day long about whether people should learn English and how quickly they should be expected to do this. That’s not the issue though. The issue is much more specific - should the school take these specific steps for these specific reasons and what cost/benefit analysis has been done to support each proposed step.

My Dc's has 43 first languages, so how many translators do the school need to employ to cover all of them.

Budgets in schools are no where big enough to cover all the costs.

If it is a budget issue that's one thing. It's still unfortunate though. Someone should not be working as a headteacher in a London school - or as any kind of educator in London - if they have made this decision based on an ideology.

It is in the interests of the child's education for their parents to understand what is happening at school. For the school not to assist in this is a dereliction of duty. You can say that the parent is negligent if you want but the fact remains that the CHILD should be central in this, just as if a child comes into school without proper clothing because the parent hasn't provided it the school will take steps to provide it.

Exactly. It’s also not just Brits who struggle after years of language lessons, it all depends on the quality of those lessons.
I learned English at school and was even considered pretty good at it, but I only learned it properly once I started socialising with native speakers and later moved to the UK.
I know plenty of people in the country where I went to school who’re not confident at all about their school English.

Is personally not use France , or Germany as a model for immigration

the Paris vibe and suburbs are utterly soul destroying me me as a Londoner
how NOT to do it

England’s not perfect but the simple fact is the children ultimately benefit from this

which was ops concern

totally get that they can’t do it as no budget

but the fact they did - it was a kind thing

And do you think this should be the same for English speaking people moving to non English speaking countries? That the state should supply and pay for translation/interpretation services for them?

Lots of posters on here have described their experience living in non English speaking countries and have none of these services provided.

Why do you think it's xenophobia?

Have you ever moved to one or several different countries? Did you expect them to bend over backward or were you reasonably keen to make the efforts needed to integrate?

So what sort of multiculturalism are we to integrate with? There are people in the UK from all over the world, I can't be expected to integrate with each and every culture, particularly when some are diametrically opposed to the host culture or another culture. What do you want to do in this respect? I can't be expected to know what is expected in various cultures, when we now have so many? Just the same as I can't speak the 40 plus languages that were spoken in the borough where I last worked.

It's not xenophobia to expect people to acquire at least a conversation level of the language of the country they live in after they've been here for a period of time unless there are extenuating circumstances like age or disabilities.

No, this is NOT a reasonable decision at all, and yes, it does smack of xenophobia, just as a shocking number of replies on this thread do.

Yes, you should raise it, formally, in a well attended meeting that is documented. I would also highlight very firmly what you have articulated here, that most form letters already exist and would just be a matter of changing a date/time/location and the cost being paid for telephone translation services is minimal compared to the additional funding the school receives.

I agree with this.
I wouldn't be happy if something else got cut to carry on funding translators when the parents have had plenty of opportunity to learn English.

This is really difficult and I do understand your feelings. But ultimately I do think we need to be encouraging immigrants to learn English - we have ended up with sort of ‘ghettos’ in major cities where everyone from one culture/language clumps together and makes no attempt to assimilate, and I don’t think it’s good for social cohesion and fosters resentment and ultimately contributes to xenophobia. And I do think if you move to a country the responsibility should be on you to learn the language so you are not an extra drain on resources.

It sounds like the school has been making provision with the English classes - what is the uptake of those?

Ultimately it sounds like the letters wouldn’t be any skin off their nose and those should probably continue. But the translators for parents evenings - no. That should be down to the parents to bring a responsible adult (NOT the child for heavens sake) to translate for them. I think two years would be a more reasonable cut off point though.

The extra funding for pupils on FSM should be used for enrichment activities for them. Trips, tutors, music lessons etc.
Thats what it’s supposed to be for - to provide opportunities they wouldn’t otherwise have because they come from low income families. Not because their parents can’t be bothered to learn English.

Michael Rosen said something in Facebook today that resonated with this thread: "A lot of talk this morning about multiculturalism means that some people don't 'integrate'. That suggests there is some single thing that 'others' have to integrate WITH. I've been trying to do it the other way round: working our how I can integrate with multiculturalism."

I think they have no choice because of funding,the parents also have access to classes for free to learn English
Where I live people send their children to Welsh school when they don't speak or understand a word of it themselves,how on earth are they supposed to help and support their children's learning.

I think they're doing the right thing.

Really good point. You can also scan a document and it will translate.

Honestly OP translators are extraordinarily expensive.

You certainly do need to demonstrate proficiency in French to obtain citizenship, you don’t need to demonstrate proficiency to hold a residency permit that allows you to simply live here.

Most residence permits do have language as a requirement - either to speak to a particular level or take a mandated number of hours of classes.

I wonder if all the countries abroad that DON'T provide any translation/interpreting services actually have better or worse outcomes for immigrants to their country? I would guess that some people fall through the cracks but overall more people learn the local language and benefit from that. I wonder if there's any research into it though.

I heard on Radio 4 recently about recent immigrants/asylum seekers to Germany have to have lessons on the cultural expectations living in Germany and can't claim public money/assistance without attending these.