Page 14 | School refusing to provide translator

CapturedLeprechaun · 2023-09-27T21:19:59+00:00

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood. The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation. This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English. Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken. The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week. School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to. On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

FoodFann · 28/09/2023 12:26

YABU. We speak English in England.

EaudeJavel · 28/09/2023 12:20

It doesn't matter if some letters exist. It would be extremely discriminatory if the school was sending letters in one language (that they have), but not in another language (that they haven't got).

How would that work? The school prides itself in helping with Portuguese and Spanish, but not with German? That can't happen in a state school.

MentholLoad · 28/09/2023 12:18

AnySoln · 28/09/2023 12:07

The costs must be huge!.
How many support staff extra have they had to provide this. Our primary has 2. For 400 kids.
I dont think this is what the fsm etc funding should be used for.
Feel sorry for the admin having to attach loads of versions of the letters.

what do you think Pupil Premium should be used for @AnySoln ?

TrudyProud · 28/09/2023 12:16

@SomeCatFromJapan @Gothambutnotahamster you might be cynical but the majority of British immigrants don't learn local languages. Most don't actually socially interact with locals beyond the ones they are exposed to at work.

When I lived in Asia most of my British colleagues were surprised that I socialised (including inviting to events in my home) with locals and ate at local food vendors regularly because even those who'd lived in Singapore for 10yrs + didn't.

MentholLoad · 28/09/2023 12:14

@CapturedLeprechaun what about letters regarding Diwali and Eid celebrations for example. does he not want these sent out in Urdu/Arabic etc??

you make a really good point about Pupil Premium also

this Head needs to get his ass to some rural back water somewhere. he does not have the best interests of the school students, at heart. urgh!

Gothambutnotahamster · 28/09/2023 12:12

SomeCatFromJapan · 28/09/2023 12:11

Even when pulled up on the fact that the majority of British immigrants abroad don't speak and write in local languages the overwhelming response is "well no need as English is also spoken". With no regard for the terrible colonial legacy that has brought this about.

I'm equally critical of anyone who immigrates and doesn't learn the local language.

Me too!

SomeCatFromJapan · 28/09/2023 12:11

Even when pulled up on the fact that the majority of British immigrants abroad don't speak and write in local languages the overwhelming response is "well no need as English is also spoken". With no regard for the terrible colonial legacy that has brought this about.

I'm equally critical of anyone who immigrates and doesn't learn the local language.

AuxArmesCitoyens · 28/09/2023 12:10

I get why this doesn't sound like a priority given current budget constraints but

1: as others have pointed out, the sorts of languages involved are hugely under-represented in the databases used by Google Translate etc so the results will be much shonkier than you'd get for major Western European languages into English

2: there are major systemic barriers to second language literacy in immigrant communities, it's not just a matter of laziness

3: using children as go-betweens is really, really not best practice: think about asking a child to explain to their parent that they've been suspended for drinking or something, for instance: Community volunteers is better but there are still major concerns over e:g reliability, accuracy and confidentiality:

4: other countries do provide info in English for expat English speakers: the PTA at my school in France does

sashh · 28/09/2023 12:09

I know this is mainly about school and therefore fairly young adults but one thing for healthcare is that if you develop dementia you usually lose your languages in the opposite order to the way you acquired them, so someone fluent in 5 languages can become monolingual and if they acquired English as an adult, which is common with immigrants and your other 4 languages as a child you will lose your English first.

Tartareistasty · 28/09/2023 12:08

Benefits chat is redundant in many cases considering no recourse to public funds...

AnySoln · 28/09/2023 12:07

The costs must be huge!.
How many support staff extra have they had to provide this. Our primary has 2. For 400 kids.
I dont think this is what the fsm etc funding should be used for.
Feel sorry for the admin having to attach loads of versions of the letters.

MentholLoad · 28/09/2023 12:07

PumpkinSoup21 · 28/09/2023 11:30

The responses on this thread are bizarre and make a whole host of uninformed assumptions about people’s circumstances.

From your explanation there is one point that I would focus on as a governor. The proposal is to withdraw even support that can be provided at no additional cost (I.e. the letters that already exist in translation. That specific part of the proposal therefore has nothing to do with the budget. In fact you could even argue it will add costs as staff will need to spend time removing people from mailing lists. The only reason for doing that therefore is if the school: (a) agrees that it is the school’s duty to apply negative pressure to families regarding language learning (so not just positive opportunity like language classes but withdrawal of an existing service AND (b) that this is an effective means to apply that pressure (I.e. they have some evidence that withdrawing this provision will eventually result in an increasing language proficiency amongst families rather than, say, a breakdown of communication between school and home)

It is entirely appropriate for the governing body to discuss in detail those two points and decide whether this is the right way forward.

Where there is an extra cost for translation then the two points above still able but there is the added factor of budget. The decision about these steps should therefore include discussion of the points above and should consider concrete figures about cost as well as the views of staff who have acted as translators, local agencies who work with non-English speaking communities, and families themselves.

In short, we can argue all day long about whether people should learn English and how quickly they should be expected to do this. That’s not the issue though. The issue is much more specific - should the school take these specific steps for these specific reasons and what cost/benefit analysis has been done to support each proposed step.

excellent post

TrudyProud · 28/09/2023 12:05

Honestly the majority of responses to this thread are appalling.

Even when pulled up on the fact that the majority of British immigrants abroad don't speak and write in local languages the overwhelming response is "well no need as English is also spoken". With no regard for the terrible colonial legacy that has brought this about.

Furthermore, the focus is on the parents and using disparaging language such as lazy etc (though how people potentially working multiple low wage jobs in potentially insecure housing can be considered lazy I'll never understand) why is nobody focusing on the negative impact this will have on the children of parents who can't interact with the school in a meaningful way.

And for those with absolutely no empathy for other children hopefully you are selfish enough to recognise that this will likely have a negative impact on the kids with parents with English as a 1st language. Your kids will be negatively impacted because the classroom won't progress as fast when they are trying single-handedly to support every child to reach a minimum standard and it will be the schools fault because they haven't brought the parents alongside to help eg - without ESOL lessons and translators the child of the non English speaking parent will likely be pulled out of school regularly to support parents at gp visits or anything that requires translating services.
The child effectively becomes a carer and stats show the negative impact being a child carer have not only on the individual child but society. Let's kids be kids and support parents to allow their children be children.

Efacsen · 28/09/2023 12:03

Lemonyyy · 28/09/2023 11:36

I think the recurrent insistence that immigrants who don't learn English "can't be bothered" is pretty xenophobic.

The majority of immigrants who speak little to no English are women. The barriers to learning are often gender based, such as caring responsibilities preventing them attending classes or making it harder to integrate into a new community to practice their new language. There is also the level of existing literacy in their native language, which again is likely to be lower in women depending on their home country. Functional illiteracy may prevent you from knowing the class exists in the first place, and have more difficulty learning whilst there. There may also be familial opposition - if your husband prevents you from attending classes then you cannot learn.

If these women and mothers are the women who communicate with school (and if, for example, your husband has prevented you from learning english due to your need to stay home and be responsible for the children) then yes, there is more likely to be a language barrier.

The actual issue of school funding a translator is different as if the money isn't there, then they can't. But there's some pretty crappy attitudes on this thread!

My experience of working in healthcare in ?the same area of London was similar

Culturally the husband was the spokesperson for the family and his wife was seen as having no need to communicate outside of the family or attend services without a male relative. Many women had no English despite living in the UK for more than 20 years

So not laziness or avoiding responsibilies as parents at all but very difficult to address

A male relative was virtually always the translator and translators provided by NHS were declined because of the confidentiality of health/family information

Signage was added and letters were sent in the dominant additional language but this proved counter-productive because of low literacy rates and confounded the ability of young family members to translate written English for their parents

MarySmit · 28/09/2023 12:02

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/09/2023 11:49

Who the hell can work in the UK and claim benefits without speaking English?

Many benefits advice agencies provide translators too

Of course it's not automatic that immigrants will be on benefits, though not speaking the language will certainly restrict their employment opportunities - unlesss they aim to work in a monolingual sweatshop I guess

There are community groups that help them fill out the benefits forms. When it comes to benefits, they are motivated enough to fill in the forms in English.

TrudyProud · 28/09/2023 11:54

Poppyblush · 28/09/2023 07:59

How on earth do these parents who don’t speak English work…. Probably they don’t and get benefits. Sorry but after five years, this is appalling.

The same way British immigrants abroad work- they a) do jobs that accommodate the level of local language they have b) do roles that don't require the local language

PollyPut · 28/09/2023 11:52

CapturedLeprechaun · 28/09/2023 10:40

So the most common first languages at our school are Arabic/ Urdu / Farsi / Pashto / Polish / Romanian.

These languages already have templates of letters written for most occasions. For example, if it's a class trip letter, all the basics are already translated and saved in a template "Your child has a class trip, coach will leave at 9am and return at 3pm. They need to bring a packed lunch in a disposable carrier bag, they can wear their own clothes and need a coat and wellies, cost is X and needs to be paid by X date", so the school office send this template via email, just changing the day of the week/month, which again, is a pre-translated list and they copy and paste this in.

How it currently works is there is an email mailing list for each language. So the letter goes to everyone in English, then you attach a Pashto letter and send to the Pashto mailing list, attach the Urdu letter and send to the Urdu mailing list etc etc.

This system will still remain, but after a child has been at the school for a year, their parents name are being removed from that language mailing list. So the school will still have a copy of the Arabic letter, which will go the Arabic families who have been at the school for less than a year. The Arabic speaking families who have been at the school for more than a year are purposely being removed from the mailing list.

It seems so counterintuitive to me. The head's argument is "they need to learn English, it doesn't help them if we keep providing it in their language after a year". But I think it's the kids who will suffer, and I don't see the harm in keeping these parents on the mailing list so they still receive it in their home language, if the letter is literally already written!

Not sure why the head is doing this.

An easier way would be to have the standard letter in English and then send an attachment covering all the languages (Pashto, Polish etc) to the parents who need it. It helps those families feel included.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 28/09/2023 11:49

Who the hell can work in the UK and claim benefits without speaking English?

Many benefits advice agencies provide translators too

Of course it's not automatic that immigrants will be on benefits, though not speaking the language will certainly restrict their employment opportunities - unlesss they aim to work in a monolingual sweatshop I guess

Tartareistasty · 28/09/2023 11:47

MentholLoad · 28/09/2023 11:44

yes, OP explained it as a mail merge template with fields like trip/date/time....it's being updated everytime for parents that have been at the school/in the country (?) for less than a year. but parents are being removed from the mailing list after a year because the head thinks that they should have learnt English by now. it's zero effort/cost to keep them on that list

Show quote history

I get it's the template, but even templates need occasional updates in the regular text. That's what I meant.

steppemum · 28/09/2023 11:46

I speak 3 languages well. And 2 futher ones at a lower level.
But as soon as you get into any conversation with new vocabulary, it can be like going back to square one.

Many words used within a school context are actually quite specific to that context. I am thinking of the woman whose son was being excluded and just running through all the vocab that she might never have come across in her 1 year of english learning that the head allows.
Same with an SEN meeting, or even head lice letters!

MentholLoad · 28/09/2023 11:44

Tartareistasty · 28/09/2023 11:40

Don't the letters need amending? It's not exactly the same letter for years, is it?

yes, OP explained it as a mail merge template with fields like trip/date/time....it's being updated everytime for parents that have been at the school/in the country (?) for less than a year. but parents are being removed from the mailing list after a year because the head thinks that they should have learnt English by now. it's zero effort/cost to keep them on that list

katepilar · 28/09/2023 11:41

I dont think it should be school's responsibility to translate. Surely if you move to the UK its your responsibility to learn the language.
On the other hand its possible the amout of interaction between the school and the parents is much bigger than people from other countries might expect. I think in some places people still just send the children to school and leave the school to it.

Tartareistasty · 28/09/2023 11:40

Don't the letters need amending? It's not exactly the same letter for years, is it?

MentholLoad · 28/09/2023 11:40

Lemonyyy · 28/09/2023 11:36

I think the recurrent insistence that immigrants who don't learn English "can't be bothered" is pretty xenophobic.

The majority of immigrants who speak little to no English are women. The barriers to learning are often gender based, such as caring responsibilities preventing them attending classes or making it harder to integrate into a new community to practice their new language. There is also the level of existing literacy in their native language, which again is likely to be lower in women depending on their home country. Functional illiteracy may prevent you from knowing the class exists in the first place, and have more difficulty learning whilst there. There may also be familial opposition - if your husband prevents you from attending classes then you cannot learn.

If these women and mothers are the women who communicate with school (and if, for example, your husband has prevented you from learning english due to your need to stay home and be responsible for the children) then yes, there is more likely to be a language barrier.

The actual issue of school funding a translator is different as if the money isn't there, then they can't. But there's some pretty crappy attitudes on this thread!

we had mum's at my daughter's primary school that couldn't speak much English. they cooked amazing food for every single school event. you don't need to be fluent in English to be valuable to your community/society. why go out of your way as school head to alienate parents and make their lives more difficult. if it's a matter of finances that's one thing, but it clearly isn't in this case. and even if it is, there are ways of explaining that aren't there

MarySmit · 28/09/2023 11:39

I have seen similar working for the NHS in London. Patients often live here for 10+ years and cannot even understand 'Hello, How are you?'. It's a deliberate unwillingness to integrate, which is very sad. Some communities are good at integration, and learning English, and others are very bad at it.

By providing all these translation services, we are facilitating this situation. I can understand the school saying that it's not sustainable anymore.

NHS staff from abroad say that in their home countries, no translation services are provided, everyone is expected to learn the language (and they do as a result)