Trigger warning - rape?

The only context that is relevant is that the man was told that he does not have consent to insert his penis.

if he then does insert his penis.

That is rape.

If the same man inserted the tip of his penis into a child would that be child sexual abuse or just chancing it?

Perhaps it was unfair to say you were implying that, but what happened the next morning is completely irrelevant to what happened the night before.

What makes your comment so dangerous is that it's exactly the tactics that would be used to defend an accused rapist.....

"If he raped you the night before, why would you consent to have sex with him the next day? It seems like you're a bit confused, maybe you gave mixed signals? They must have been mixed signals because the defendent genuinely believed you consented. Maybe you consented at the time but now regret having sex with him so have accused him."

Depressingly, the comments on this thread show that this kind of defense would absolutely work.

Angrywife · Today 01:56

If I didn't want to risk it, I wouldn't be getting naked under him 🤷

Victim blaming comments don’t change the facts. Op discussed with him that she did not want sex without condom and at this point he acted like he respected that, then went against her Will starting to rape her.

"Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex."

I'm taking OP on trust, there's absolutely no way he could have believed she consented.

Of course he may argue otherwise, because he knows women are very rarely believed.

We owe it to OP to give honest responses, not downplay it because no good can come of it.

@KitDeLuca I understand your perspective, and I think this is the part of the definition that is most tricky to prove in most rape cases as what someone 'believes' is very subjective.

That said, making sex conditional upon use of a condom is exactly that. It isn't the same as consenting to unprotected sex so long as they don't come in you. The difference between unprotected sex and protected sex is very stark and hard to confuse.

@Bluelightbaby "he stopped immediately when asked" - kind of him to stop raping her when asked. I think we all know that the proper and legal order of things is to get consent before penetrating someone.

@TrishM80 "she was happy to have sex with him the next morning" - what does this have to do with the penetration the night before? Many women stay in relationships with men that rape them and/or beat them (or abuse them in other ways) does this mean they weren't ever raped/beaten/abused? Actions of a victim after the event cannot change the event itself!

You stated your reasons, he tried to push that boundary. Yes, he stopped when told to do so but he'd already crossed a line.
Yes you had consensual sex the next day within your boundaries but that doesn't excuse his literal push earlier.
When I read this I was ready to say that it doesn't count as rape. I was raped after taking a sleeping tablet, in a way (not the regular way) that I would never have consented to. But replying to you, there are obviously no grades of sexual encounter that are okay when someone has stipulated what consent means for them.
Please get this person out of your life ASAP. He will do you nothing but harm in the long run. Please don’t ever let that disgusting man put you in the same position again.
Hope you're doing okay OP

@LDNH - no that’s definitely not what I said
What I’m saying is if I thought I had been raped the night before then I wouldn’t feel comfortable staying with this man overnight let alone have sex with him in the morning. OP said she hadnt really processed it at that point which is completely fair enough everyone reacts differently so please don’t put words in my mouth or tell me what I’m ‘implying’

If I didn't want to risk it, I wouldn't be getting naked under him 🤷

She was very clear about what she was and wasn't consenting to and she didn't change her mind. He stopped raping her when she asked him to stop.

The reason why this wouldn't stand up in court is because there'll be police officers and people on juries thinking like you, thinking that she didn't really mean know, she gave him mixed messages.

OP, I'm so sorry this happened to you and I'm sorry you're getting replies like this. I'm genuinely shocked by some of these attitudes.

@applesandmares

This is the best response so far :-

For what it's worth, I think he did understand why you were upset, but he didn't want to 'recognise' it, and chose to minimise it out of fear that you'd report it (and confuse you!).

That's probably why he was desperate enough to stop you leaving that he ripped your bag. This was probably especially sensitive to him given his profession & ambitions.

Things like RB being all over the news can really trigger complex feelings. When Sarah Everard was murdered (and the subsequent campaigns about women's safety occurred) I became quite fixated on a past sexual assault.

Remember, you don't need to label it to justify your feelings. You don't need other people to validate your feelings either. You and entitled to them and they exist regardless. Take care and be kind to yourself! ❤️

It's this bit of the definition
c)
A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

He might argue he has reasonable belief that she consents to everything except him coming inside her.

I'm playing devils advocate here because I'm absolutely not defending him. My reason for pointing out how it might not been seen as clearly rape is because I believe no good can come from OP going down that rabbit hole in these circumstances.

For what it's worth, I think he did understand why you were upset, but he didn't want to 'recognise' it, and chose to minimise it out of fear that you'd report it (and confuse you!).

That's probably why he was desperate enough to stop you leaving that he ripped your bag. This was probably especially sensitive to him given his profession & ambitions.

Things like RB being all over the news can really trigger complex feelings. When Sarah Everard was murdered (and the subsequent campaigns about women's safety occurred) I became quite fixated on a past sexual assault.

Remember, you don't need to label it to justify your feelings. You don't need other people to validate your feelings either. You and entitled to them and they exist regardless. Take care and be kind to yourself! ❤️

OP no judgement on you at all regardless of what happened the next morning.

I feel that you were uncomfortable with the whole.sotiation so that's enough.

I hope you're OK and feeling safe now. Please take care of yourself and be mindful of risks. Get yourself home in a cab by 11pm and make that your goal.

He'd already raped her by this point. He stopped raping her when she asked him to stop.

I think he was trying it on. I'm sure at some stage, many women have been in a situation where they've said "no" originally but changed their mind when things got hot and heavy. This change of mind isn't always communicated verbally, but the woman is happy to let the man continue, and this is probably what this fella was testing.

He stopped when she asked him, and she was happy to have sex with him the next morning, so this doesn't fall under the category of rape for me. Or I doubt it would in court, it would be torn to shreds by a half decent barrister.

Totally irrelevant. She can give/withdraw consent at any point, for any reason.

What you're implying is: you had sex with him the next day, so your "no" the previous night can't have meant "no" really.

And this is why conviction rates are so low, because there'll be police officers and people on juries thinking like this.

I wouldn’t consider this rape. He stopped immediately when asked

OP that’s fair enough! It’s hard to know sometimes what you would do in that situation. Take care ❤️

Don't see him again. He violated your boundaries.

Please don't contact him again and know that your instincts were right

You told him no without a condom, he entered you anyway, probably thinking, ‘’I’ll try my luck regardless, she might enjoy it too much to stop’’ as evidenced by his ‘’oh, don’t say that’’ remark. He knew what he was doing, this was no accident. I would be absolutely furious he thought it was ok to enter my body after I said no.

I don’t blame you feeling angry, OP. Just reading your post and all the the people defending him made me furious

KitDeLuca · Today 01:20

It is the definition, but there is room for ambiguity and misunderstanding

This is a very dangerous mindset and part of the reason why so few women are believed........ It's not the man's fault, the woman must have given him mixed signals.

Read the OP again, she was very clear what she was consenting to, there's no ambiguity.

Unacceptable but I wouldn’t class it as rape.
Can I ask though genuinely if it made you feel uncomfortable and you was so angry about it as you said why did you have sex with him in the morning?

Honestly, I'm shocked at most of these replies!

There's no gray area here. It doesn't matter that he only penetrated her a bit, or that he stopped raping her when she said no (what a gentleman!). He penetrated her without consent, that's rape.

I agree totally with this 👇

"applesandmares · Today 00:59

Interesting to see many PPs consider this not to be rape.

The definition is:

(1)
A person (A) commits an offence if—
(a)
he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,
(b)
B does not consent to the penetration, and
(c)
A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

He intentionally penetrated her vagina with his penis (it does not need to be "full penetration"). OP did not consent to this, and he didn't reasonably believe she did, as per their conversation around the necessity of a condom."