Page 3 | Trigger warning - rape?

Notsure12348 · 2023-09-22T21:42:25+00:00

Name changed as pretty sensitive post. Please don’t read if possible sexual assault will be triggering for you. Would really appreciate thoughts on whether the following situation would be considered rape/ sexual assault or just a misunderstanding or something else. - Female and male both attracted to each other and engaging in foreplay. - Female tells male she is happy to have sex but only if a condom is used. Very clear about this being a condition for sex. - Male says he doesn’t have any condoms and female doesn’t either, so agree no sex. - Kissing etc and naked, male on top of female. - Female feels something slightly entering vagina, assumes male’s fingers - fine with this. - Female realises it might be male’s penis so asks - he confirms it is. - Female tells male she is not comfortable with this, he replies “oh don’t say that” and immediately stops. Not nescessarily directly impacting upon the above but following this: - Female and male continue to kiss etc. - Next morning male finds he does have a condom and they have sex. - Over text when female raises the previous issue, male replies along the lines of saying that he doesn’t understand why she is concerned as he has no STIs and that as they were naked, his penis was bound to touch her, but doesn’t deny that it did penetrate her. AIBU: - Reasonable: it was rape or sexual assault. - Unreasonable: it was a misunderstanding or some other situation that was not an assault.

KnitWittedNan · 23/09/2023 18:31

If a 14 year old had been through this, would anyone be saying not to bother with police? It's a deeply personal choice. There are many reasons not to go through with that process, but the police this-and-that really isn't one of them.

KnitWittedNan · 23/09/2023 18:29

Whether rape or not, what would be the point of reporting this? It will never be taken any further.

And why would it not? The police will take a statement and decide whether they want to question the man further. The CPS will decide whether they have enough evidence to prosecute. And then at court, a decision is made. It's all staged. Police can't go 'nah don't fancy dealing with this one'

I can't stand this idea of 'don't bother- won't go anywhere'. Maybe this is one for the rape myth thread? You might not go to court or get a prosecution but it will go somewhere

Startingagainandagain · 23/09/2023 18:00

@Fiiiish

''This thread is disgusting. OP I'm sorry to read this has happened to you. I'm truly disgusted in the responses you've received.

Boundary of consent - sex, yes, but with a condom only

His actions - penetration without a condom

Consent given to his actions? no

Outcome; rape

How anyone can argue otherwise is completely beyond me and shows why rape is so under reported.''

This!

It really is appalling that so many women (I assume the majority of people commenting here are women) are coming up with various ways not only to condone the guy's behaviour but also to blame the OP for what happened.

Startingagainandagain · 23/09/2023 17:58

@gentlemum
'OP asked for opinions on whether it was rape or not. I gave my opinion, you gave a different opinion.'

The definition of what constitutes rape/sexual assault is not an 'opinion'.

it is a fact and a matter of law.

The legal definition of rape is when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent.

The OP told him she did not consent to penetration without a condom. He then put his penis in her vagina without a condom.

It really is that simple.

It doesn't matter if she had agreed to get naked, it doesn't matter if he did not beat her up as well, It doesn't matter if only part of that penis was in, it doesn't matter if she was still at his place the following morning.

The fact remains that she clearly had not consented to what he did.

Seriously I hope that schools are doing a good job at educating girls and boys when it comes to sex and consent because the level of ignorance and victim blaming on this thread is staggering.

Fiiiish · 23/09/2023 16:48

This thread is disgusting. OP I'm sorry to read this has happened to you. I'm truly disgusted in the responses you've received.

Boundary of consent - sex, yes, but with a condom only

His actions - penetration without a condom

Consent given to his actions? no

Outcome; rape

How anyone can argue otherwise is completely beyond me and shows why rape is so under reported.

WillowCraft · 23/09/2023 16:27

theduchessofspork · 23/09/2023 12:27

This exactly

It is technically rape.

Yes he stopped when you asked him to, but for that moment it was rape.

Had you been drunk or not noticed presumably he’d have carried on.

Plus the fact he ‘found’ a condom next morning so was clearly pre-meditated in not using one. Plus the fact he said very clearly that he doesn’t think he needs to wear a condom. This is a man who doesn’t respect women’s boundaries.

If you want to report him it fits the definition of rape.

If you don’t, you can tell him that what he did was rape.

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Whether rape or not, what would be the point of reporting this? It will never be taken any further.

verdantverdure · 23/09/2023 15:27

Minefield2468 · 23/09/2023 15:25

Does my gut instinct tell me this is rape? No

Does it meet strict definition of rape - probably

Are you right to feel violated - absolutely

If anything this tells me we need to educate our sons more but also be honest about blurred lines,

I am absolutely sure that there have been times when I have said no and meant no but then got the feels and changed my mind and consensually taken things further than I’d originally alluded to. It’s no wonder men might think there is wiggle room in the heat of the moment.

He was chancing it, you said no, he stopped.

I am not saying other people’s opinions are wrong and I am right at all. OP asked what people think and these are my thoughts,

There's no blurred line when a man has already been told no, as this man was.

verdantverdure · 23/09/2023 15:26

Again, imagine "the less serious" rape was done to a child or your grandma to get all of the thought distortions about sexual politics out of your mind. (The ones that defence barristers defending rapists rely on in court.)

If that man had inserted his penis into a child would you think it was less serious"?

Did he insert his penis? YES

Did he have consent? NO

Did he know he didn't have consent because he had been told he did not have consent? YES.

Then that's rape. and that man has committed rape.

There is a line between rape and non-rape and he crossed it and committed rape.

Minefield2468 · 23/09/2023 15:25

Does my gut instinct tell me this is rape? No

Does it meet strict definition of rape - probably

Are you right to feel violated - absolutely

If anything this tells me we need to educate our sons more but also be honest about blurred lines,

I am absolutely sure that there have been times when I have said no and meant no but then got the feels and changed my mind and consensually taken things further than I’d originally alluded to. It’s no wonder men might think there is wiggle room in the heat of the moment.

He was chancing it, you said no, he stopped.

I am not saying other people’s opinions are wrong and I am right at all. OP asked what people think and these are my thoughts,

category12 · 23/09/2023 14:46

Fallingthroughclouds · 23/09/2023 14:41

Or maybe she just wanted to have sex with him. It's a possibility.

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It is. Women do stay in relationships where they have been sexually assaulted or raped, sometimes for years, and not all the sex they have in that relationship will be non-consensual. It doesn't mean the non-consensual incidents are somehow nullified.

Fallingthroughclouds · 23/09/2023 14:41

category12 · 23/09/2023 14:17

It's not a black and white thing - people are not perfect victims and do not react in ways you may expect. There's often a strong impulse to try to normalise what has happened.

https://thenib.com/trigger-warning-breakfast-c6cdeec070e6/#.j4i6ltxzv

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Or maybe she just wanted to have sex with him. It's a possibility.

eastegg · 23/09/2023 14:32

Notsure12348 · 23/09/2023 00:31

Yes it happened to me, but I wanted to try not to bias the information presented so I could get other’s views as I feel quite conflicted about it, and information I have found is not particularly clear. I don’t want to take any action regarding it, but wanted a sense of whether my anger about the situation is valid.

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Your anger is valid whatever anyone calls it.

Fwiw I think it was rape but, and some will flame me for this, it was at the very low end of seriousness. Often in debates about rape people go nuts at the suggestion that some rapes are more serious than others but I think that’s bollocks.

But I don’t think your feelings should be determined by how criminal it was. Behaviour can be outrageous/upsetting or whatever without being criminal at all so you’re entitled to feel how you feel.

Zanatdy · 23/09/2023 14:23

In my opinion no this is not rape

category12 · 23/09/2023 14:17

Fallingthroughclouds · 23/09/2023 14:13

I still don't understand why you you would have consensual sex with this man the next morning if even a tiny part of you thought you had been raped by him.

Show quote history

It's not a black and white thing - people are not perfect victims and do not react in ways you may expect. There's often a strong impulse to try to normalise what has happened.

https://thenib.com/trigger-warning-breakfast-c6cdeec070e6/#.j4i6ltxzv

Trigger Warning: Breakfast | The Nib

The morning after I was raped, I thought I could create another story This comic is featured in Eat More Comics: The Best of The Nib—available here!

https://thenib.com/trigger-warning-breakfast-c6cdeec070e6#.j4i6ltxzv

Fallingthroughclouds · 23/09/2023 14:13

Notsure12348 · 23/09/2023 13:18

Thanks for all the replies. I wanted to clarify a few things. Firstly, I didn’t in any way intend to upset anyone who has been a victim of any other kinds of sexual assault. I was once sexually assaulted by a stranger whilst walking home alone from uni at 4am (in summer and full daylight I would add) - that is much easier to be clear in my mind that it was not okay, not consensual etc, and those kind of assaults are obviously terrifying and I wouldn’t want it to come across that I’m trying to compare etc.

The man was a work colleague at the time, in a somewhat senior position though not someone I worked directly with. But not a stranger at all and I had believed that he would respect the boundary I set regarding protection. Given he told me he had no condoms, I had been very clear that I would not have sex that night so the comments about him trying his luck are kind of upsetting - if he wasn’t okay with that then he could equally have said well keep clothes on etc surely?

He didn’t fully penetrate me, not close - but his penis did definitely partially enter me. I have texts from afterwards where I pointed that out to him.

It isn’t just the RB stuff that has reminded me of it, I often think about it. But I think that has brought it more to the fore.

I still don't understand why you you would have consensual sex with this man the next morning if even a tiny part of you thought you had been raped by him.

MsPloddingBottom · 23/09/2023 13:22

I think it's worth reporting if you have texts. It may well get to court and at the very least, it will be on his record under his name. There nothing to lose, imo

Original poster

Notsure12348 · 23/09/2023 13:21

I’m also not asking about this because of having any intention to go to the Police or anything, definitely not. I know it wouldn’t “hold up on court” and I really, really hope that the man learned from it like I did.

OP posts:

Original poster

Notsure12348 · 23/09/2023 13:18

Thanks for all the replies. I wanted to clarify a few things. Firstly, I didn’t in any way intend to upset anyone who has been a victim of any other kinds of sexual assault. I was once sexually assaulted by a stranger whilst walking home alone from uni at 4am (in summer and full daylight I would add) - that is much easier to be clear in my mind that it was not okay, not consensual etc, and those kind of assaults are obviously terrifying and I wouldn’t want it to come across that I’m trying to compare etc.

The man was a work colleague at the time, in a somewhat senior position though not someone I worked directly with. But not a stranger at all and I had believed that he would respect the boundary I set regarding protection. Given he told me he had no condoms, I had been very clear that I would not have sex that night so the comments about him trying his luck are kind of upsetting - if he wasn’t okay with that then he could equally have said well keep clothes on etc surely?

He didn’t fully penetrate me, not close - but his penis did definitely partially enter me. I have texts from afterwards where I pointed that out to him.

It isn’t just the RB stuff that has reminded me of it, I often think about it. But I think that has brought it more to the fore.

OP posts:

EBearhug · 23/09/2023 13:14

The OP was clear no penetrative sex without condom.

She wasn't sure if it was penis or fingers entering her, so asked.
It was penis. If she hadn't asked, if she had assumed, "it must be fingers, because he knows I don't want his penis without a condom," he'd have carried on. He knew what he was doing and what she'd said, and was taking the chance she wouldn't mention it because it was already happening.

So it is rape. Wouldn't get anywhere in court, though.

The ripped bag is a red flag, too.

OP, every man I've been with in 18 months of OLD has preferred not to use condoms, don't all carry them and will bang on about how much better sex I without it, how they know they're clean (because of one STI test nearly a year ago...) and the chances of me getting pregnant at 50 are really low. They are very tiresome. I keep my own stash of condoms so they have no excuse.

MsPloddingBottom · 23/09/2023 13:01

The op was not at any risk.

Sexual health
Pregnancy if he continued
Being raped obviously

?

Nemesias · 23/09/2023 13:00

WillowCraft · 23/09/2023 11:54

If you don't consent to any form of intercourse, don't take your clothes off, or at least be aware of where their body is on relation to yours. It's not fair to willingly engage in foreplay, take your clothes off, and expect someone to check every little thing before they do it. As long as they are gentle and stop immediately if you ask them to, I think that is fine and doesn't involve any risk.

Avoiding sex with people you don't know is the best way to stay safe.

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She laid out her consent very clearly before they started. What’s hard about that to understand? Plus penetration is hardly “every little thing”.

honestly what do you gain from being a rape apologist?

MsPloddingBottom · 23/09/2023 12:58

applesandmares · 23/09/2023 12:07

@WillowCraft

If you don't consent to any form of intercourse, don't take your clothes off, or at least be aware of where their body is on relation to yours. It's not fair to willingly engage in foreplay, take your clothes off, and expect someone to check every little thing before they do it. As long as they are gentle and stop immediately if you ask them to, I think that is fine and doesn't involve any risk.

This is a very general sweeping statement of little relevance to the OPs situation. She was consenting to the foreplay and nakedness. She was also consenting to protected intercourse. She didn't expect him to "check every little thing" - she expected him to respect her decision not to have sex without a condom, which was clearly communicated to him.

This isn't a situation where two people got naked and carried away. They had a conversation about the terms on which intercourse could take place. He decided he didn't care about her consent and penetrated in spite of the conditions of consent she had clearly laid out to him. If he was hoping she had changed her mind, he should have sought her consent again before penetrating her.

Absolutely. I get where pp was coming from because being naked and alone with a man makes you very vulnerable but you really can't be clearer than "I don't want to have sex without a condom". Disgusting to violate someone in that way

WillowCraft · 23/09/2023 12:51

BeatenByAScone · 23/09/2023 11:46

Wow, well done on the victim blaming there.

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I am not blaming her, I am just thinking about taking reasonable steps to ensure the end result is what you want.

People do need to take some responsibility for their own part in these things. In the real world it's unrealistic to expect perfect behaviour from everyone at all times, even those we love dearly.
Yes the man made a mistake. No he is not a rapist. The op was not at any risk.

Cowlover89 · 23/09/2023 12:50

It was rape and your feelings are valid. I hope you're okay x

Lavenderlulu · 23/09/2023 12:48

Even if you don't feel violated in same way, it is rape because you specified consent would only be given with a condom and you did not want sex only foreplay, it was clear enough that he verbally agreed. He didn't accidently slip in, he was forcing your boundaries in hope you'd just go along with sex anyway and only stopped as you pulled him up on it and likely in his mind realised at that stage if carried on its rape and then he'd definitely not get chance to sleep with you again. No different than if you had consented to PIV sex but said no to anal and he went oops I'm in now, that's going against your wishes.
Decent people manage to maintain boundaries to only engage in foreplay you didn't need to have put clothing on to avoid sex with him.