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Scout camp plans excluding weak swimmers

133 replies

LostMySocks · 17/09/2023 20:27

DS scout group have announced a summer camp....surf camp. They have also linked the camps to getting the Gold award.
DD is a weak swimmer. No way should he be in the sea as there is a real risk that he will get into trouble. There doesn't seem to be an alternative plan even though there are younger children joining before summer. I'm assuming they won't all be super swimmers. I know they are all volunteers but this seems short sighted as a supposedly inclusive organisation. DS is very upset at the idea of not going but I don't want to pay for him to sit on a beach.

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budgiegirl · 20/09/2023 19:21

The best thing you can do is talk to the leaders. Ask how strong a swimmer they are expecting your child to be. Are you assuming that the scouts need to be strong swimmers, or have they told you this? If they do need to be good swimmers, can you take your child swimming regularly between now and the camps. Ask if there are any alternatives, either now or in the future. It's highly unlikely that any one camp/activity is vital to the scouts achieving their Gold Award.

Some leaders may allow the scouts to do activities outside of scouts that will count towards the award. So if the surf camp is to get the scouts to try a new sport for their Adventure Challenge, then ask if your child can do a new sport out of scouts, and have this count.

But you won't know any of this until you talk to the leaders. I think it's fine for the leaders to offer a specialist camp, as long as alternatives are offered at another time (which is very likely to be the case).

RedToothBrush · 18/09/2023 14:18

DinnaeFashYersel · 18/09/2023 13:07

@RedToothBrush

We were using an outside supplier who required participants to be able to swim 50m

Of course you are correct when the activity is being delivered by permitted scout leaders.

But always worth checking what the particulars are for the event being organised in case of variables.

Even for white water kayaking it is NOT essential for someone to be able to swim 50m to do the activity safely.

A number of my friends (and DH) have professional level permits. They all say that it's not an absolute essential skill because you don't need to be able to swim. You need to be able to float and not panic and for the number of experienced members in the group with the right skills in lifesaving to be appropriate for the conditions, the level of experience of the group and the actual number in the group. What they have to be able to argue to their governing body who issues the permit, is that they have allowed for this in their risk assessment.

The issue with booking onto a course or getting paid instructors in, is the ratio of adults (or instructors) to clients is more rigid and fixed (often simply for insurance purposes). They will generally be for eight people because that's how they make money. They couldn't take out eight non-swimmers to one.

But they could take out a smaller group in theory if they risk assessed it properly and their insurance allowed for it.

The biggest issue is having enough people to respond to a situation and not having someone panic. Your general most likely 'worse case' scenario is an 'all in' situation. So you need to be able to manage that and that's what you cater to (and what your insurance will effectively based on). That's obviously easier with swimmers than non-swimmers. If you have a non-swimmer they are much more likely to panic. Saying can you swim 50m is about reducing the risk of panickers to a certain extent.

However experienced instructors will happily, for example, take out their own kids younger than the age limits centres have or below the level of being able to swim 50m.

The point is there is discretion allowed in this and that's different to a hard and fast rule on no swimmers. But centres will almost always lean towards protecting their long term future and ensuring they are well within their insurance requirements (cos that's just sensible).

That's also why Scouts also allow for this discretion. To allow for an appropriate risk assessment and more situation specific scenarios. Precisely so you could be more inclusive and allow entry into the sport. This taking Beavers out with their parents on flat water in a canoe in good warm weather is an option. But you wouldn't take a Beaver white water paddling with Scouting.

DS did first start on mild white water age 6 outside scouting - he had two professional level coaches with him on a warm day when the water was low. It was well within everyone's capability to handle. DS has always been super confident in water even though his swimming ability even now leaves a lot to be desired.

Most instructors I know tended to come from Scouting as their initial entry into kayaking so I do think it's really important to have this flexibility to micro assess the situation. It helps knowing the kids well and knowing their personality (which a paid instructor doesn't have either).

Scouting doesn't tend to get to white white level until you get to Explorer age anyway - and there are very few leaders permitted for it (keeping in mind you need good ratios). It's generally much more entry level. And you also need to have access to the appropriate equipment which is a lot more difficult and limiting (and this is how scouting also covers itself in terms of trips needing to demonstrate they have the right equipment to be covered by Scouting's own insurance / risk assessments). And kayaking/canoeing is limited in terms of where you can actually do it too - you often need permits for the water body if it's inland.

The sea is a little more complex but fine as long as you stick to proper safety and risk assessments.

And tbh every instructor I know is a LOT more concerned about the trend in paddle boarding and the general public going and doing it themselves - often without bouyancy aids. There are far too many teenagers and adults who think they are too cool for a bouyancy aid and don't respect the water. I know of numerous instructors have ended up having to do rescues - at risk to themselves - because their certification basically obliged them to intervene in such scenarios as they have life saving skills. I always worry if we go to the beach with DH for this reason. It's rather less fun being with someone constantly on guard for issues!

In recent years a large percentage of the most tragic incidents in these type of water sports have involved poor risk assessment of the weather and a lack of appropriate safety equipment (buoyancy aids) to the point that paddle boarding has recently been forced to move under the umbrella of regulation of the BCU (British Canoeing) because they have a very good system of regulation, training and safety awareness. It's strict for a reason. But that's about the process of risk assessment itself rather than a more rigid rule on things like ability to swim. Ultimately you have to be able to demonstrate in every situation you are within the limitations of the group as a whole for the settings and conditions on the day.

But not being able to swim itself doesn't stop you being capable of doing these activities at entry level. You just have to adjust accordingly.

I would encourage anyone who is concerned about water activities with scouts to talk to their leaders asking them to run through their considerations for the risks for the group and for non swimmers for this reason.

PuttingDownRoots · 18/09/2023 13:15

Lots of kids come to Scouts to do activities like this. Water sports, climbing, target sports bushcraft etc.

By saying that Scouts shouldn't do these activities as some don't like them, means that other children miss out on what could be their only chance to do them.

OP has suggested climbing as an alternative... what about a non swimming child who is afraid of heights? Should they then do a third activity?

Our Scout group now covers 6 villages due to lack of leaders. Thats a whole Secondary school catchment and its 7 feeder Primary schools.

DinnaeFashYersel · 18/09/2023 13:07

@RedToothBrush

We were using an outside supplier who required participants to be able to swim 50m

Of course you are correct when the activity is being delivered by permitted scout leaders.

But always worth checking what the particulars are for the event being organised in case of variables.

fruitbrewhaha · 18/09/2023 12:49

Totally U.

Surfing is amazing. I wish I was a scout.

Ffghhhbdbfb · 18/09/2023 12:31

Children are expected to be able to swim by the end of primary school. It is neglectful to have the resources to take a child to after school activities, but to have ignored swimming. It is a fundamental safety skill. If your son does not learn to swim well he will not be safe in or around water. He will also have the embarrassment of having to sit on the side while others swim.

Please make it a priority to take him swimming regularly and sign up for lessons. We planned summer holidays around intensive swimming courses, plus weekly lessons. We know someone (from living in the US) whose child drowned in a pool.

randomusernam · 18/09/2023 12:19

Why don't you volunteer to join and offer to supervise a non swimming activity rather than moaning about it on the internet. They are only so many people with so much time. They probably don't have the people or time to run two activities

FranticHare · 18/09/2023 10:26

As a Scout leader - its been a joy to read so much support for the volunteers by the people on this thread.

The Scouts are nearly always a joy (well, in a way only some stroppy teenagers can be!), as are many parents. But there is always the odd one that can really get to you, and make you wonder why you bother!

And to the OP - talk to the leaders rather than gossiping on Mumsnet. If they can they will make it work I'm sure.

AmyandPhilipfan · 18/09/2023 09:56

But have they said he can't do it? I could be wrong but I got the impression that the Scout group would be happy to take him but his mum doesn't want him to go.

CurlewKate · 18/09/2023 09:54

"But surely you would just think 'well this one's not for him, maybe next time.'"

No- if I understand correctly, this isn't a specific special interest camp. It's the whole group annual camp. Which should be as inclusive as possible.

AmyandPhilipfan · 18/09/2023 09:42

I can understand you not wanting to send him if you fear for his safety in the water. But surely you would just think 'well this one's not for him, maybe next time.' Not everything can suit all people and surely if you send your child to Scouts you understand they will do 'risky' activities.

Also, I imagine surfing will only be part of the activities. If he doesn't do the surfing element he can still pitch a tent, light a fire, cook, join in with evening games etc.

My children's old primary school do a surfing session every year for Year 5 children. I doubt very much all the 9 and 10 year olds are strong swimmers but they have instructors, boundaries and safety equipment . I expect it would be the same for the Scout camp.

CurlewKate · 18/09/2023 09:39

OP-I really think you ought to check with the group leader. It seems bad planning for a whole group camp to be focussed on a single activity like this.

Threeboysadogandacat · 18/09/2023 09:31

Unless he has a disability that you haven’t mentioned your ds could be a strong and capable swimmer by the time surf camp comes around. It needs a bit of a “can do” attitude and allocating part of the household budget to some 1:1 lessons. If money is really tight perhaps you could ask family or friends for a lesson as a birthday or Christmas gift. It’s one of the greatest gifts they could give him.

Ask around the local gyms or other parents will know where to get a private lesson. At his age, and with you taking him to the pool a couple of times a week, he will probably only need ten or so lessons. Then practice, practice, practice. Do any of the pools near you offer an obstacle type course. I found they were great for water confidence.

Most schools offer a residential activity week in year 6/P7 which often involve water sports. If his school does this it will be so much more fun if he is confident in and around water.

You can sort this out by next summer. Happy swimming!

Willmafrockfit · 18/09/2023 09:29

my dc did canoeing with the scouts, in the evenings.
if you didnt swim no doubt you didnt take part.

try and take your dc swimming more regularly perhaps?

LittleRedYarny · 18/09/2023 09:28

As you have said that there are long wait lists for swimming lessons, what about a bit of DIY practice by going to the pool with your DS? There are loads and loads of good videos on YouTube, Books and Apps for improving swim technique. You’ve nearly a year to improve his stamina, you can start really safe and slow and build up gradually, I’m not suggesting anything risky. Being a capable swimmer is a really important life skill.

(I will caveat this with saying getting a few lifesaving type classes in with a professional would also be amazingly beneficial to keeping him safe in the water.)

Oysterbabe · 18/09/2023 09:27

My kids had their swimming lessons delayed by covid. I remember going on holiday once it was allowed, they were 4 and 6, and they were both in rubber rings, being held the whole time. They started lessons right after. The next year the 7 year old was confidently swimming and could do breaststroke, front crawl and backstroke. The 5 year old was taking a bit longer to build stamina but he could swim, was really confident in the water and spent more time under the water than on top of it. This was 1 year of a half hour swimming lesson once a week.
You can make huge progress before the camp but try and get proper lessons unless you are confident that you can teach them correctly.

ReadyForPumpkins · 18/09/2023 09:24

By its very own nature, physical activities are never fully inclusive. DD can swim but won't go canoeing with the guides. Some of the girls don't like theme parks and some won't go to their ice skating or wall climbing trips.

There's always someone who is scared of heights, speed or don't swim well enough.

Also, you are making an excuse about covid. DC 9 can swim 50m easily and she's younger than scouts age. It does not take long to learn to swim 50m.

AnnaBegins · 18/09/2023 09:19

Everything RedToothBrush said.

The leaders are volunteers. The group will no doubt fundraise towards the camp costs. Adding an activity doubles the number of leaders required and the costs.

There are steps you can take to improve the situation (talk to the leaders, volunteer, take child swimming) but please don't spoil it for the group and for the volunteer leaders if you're not prepared to put the effort in either.

HairsprayBabe · 18/09/2023 09:19

Start swimming lessons there is lots of time between now and next summer. Even with COVID he should be able to swim at this age.
My three year old was born August 2020 and has had swimming lessons since he was 7 months old and the lessons started again. He is a confident swimmer now, with adult supervision obviously.
Swimming is and essential life skill.

Sotiredmjmmy · 18/09/2023 09:18

I don’t know how old you dc is but as others have said surfing is not necessarily only for strong swimmers, where we live the kids do surf activities from 5 years old and many will only just be starting swim lessons at that point and definitely can’t do open water swimming on their own, it doesn’t mean they can’t participate and enjoy it. All surf activities (like any activities) reflect it in the child/adult ratios

Have you spoken to the proper organising it to ask for proper details?

Also look at crash swimming courses, my DC missed lessons during covid but only about a year and have more than caught up and now overtaken their peers by doing a couple of crash courses as well as weekly lessons

CurlewKate · 18/09/2023 09:16

This surprises me- are you sure you have all the facts? It's unusual to have a whole group camp that doesn't offer choices.

ZenNudist · 18/09/2023 09:13

It sounds like you are making a lot of excuses for not teaching your dc an essential life skill.

The surfing will only be one activity and the camp itself will be fun but I wouldn't rule out surfing. Seems to me he now has an incentive to improve. He can get a lot better in a year.

If you don't want to take him swimming yourself canyou sit on the sidelines? At my pool over 8s can go in unaccompanied. He'd improve more with you helping him.

You can't blame covid. Allthe other kids have managed to swim. Mine included. Covid hasn't set them back.

RedToothBrush · 18/09/2023 09:06

With scouting guidance in mind there are two things the OP can do to help her son.

  1. improve his swimming
  2. get reassurance from the leaders by actually talking to them
  3. volunteer to go on the trip too to improve adult to child ratios

I am not convinced the OP will do any of these because she's already decided 'its too dangerous' rather than listen to what the scout association themselves say on the subject.

If you understand the training and the risk assessments leaders have to do, it does ease the anxiety. And the anxiety has a tendency to be lead by parents not kids.

GeneralLevy · 18/09/2023 09:00

As a scout leader, there’s some misinformation here. It’s 50 metres wearing the appropriate equipment, which may include a life jacket.

Ive taken scouts sailing, paddle boarding, canoeing and on inflatable courses on lakes.

Here’s the rules. If everyone is wearing a life jacket then it’s in a life jacket.

9.13.1.1
Members taking part in any water activity, i.e. those which take place on or in the water, must be able to demonstrate to a suitable person their ability to swim 50 metres in clothing and equipment appropriate to the activity (where a buoyancy aid or life jacket is worn for the activity this may be used for the demonstration) and keep afloat for five minutes. Anyone unable to meet these requirements is classified as a non-swimmer and must follow Rule 9.13.1.2.
9.13.1.2
A non-swimmer may take part in water activities, at the discretion of the person in charge, only if certain precautions are taken:

  1. any non-swimmer must wear a lifejacket or buoyancy aid of approved design and be in the charge of an adult. This does not apply for swimming, paddling or activities near water
  2. there must be no more than one non-swimmer in any craft, unless a one-to-one ratio is maintained i.e. one competent adult to one non-swimmer
  3. in the case of single-handed craft this should only be on C or B1 Waters (see Rule 9.13.4) with supervision on a one-to-one basis i.e. one competent adult to one non-swimmer.
  4. where non-swimmers are taking part in swimming activities (as defined in Rule 9.13.10), they must be under the direct supervision of an adult in the water. This must not exceed two non-swimmers to one adult.
RedToothBrush · 18/09/2023 08:54

Fwiw we constantly find it's parents more anxious than the kids and the parents who are ignorant of the safety measures.

If there is an issue, DISCUSS IT WITH THE LEADERS.

UK scouting are ok with non swimmers taking part in surfing activities (with the correct risk assessment for conditions, activity level and adult to child ratio). They wouldn't be if it was too dangerous.

The emphasis in the advice is on safety equipment and being able enough to swim in a bouyancy aid for 50m which 10 year old non swimmers are capable of.

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