Physician’s associate introduced as Dr at GP surgery

Not just her mother who thought that - it was the coroner's conclusion and guidelines were updated accordingly that no patient should see a PA twice in a tow for the same issue.

Doctors are not allowed to be PAs. Many have tried as they earn more money ! Weird isn't it that we pay our doctors less than their associates for many years. Especially when the doctors have to sign off and prescribe for the associates.
And we wonder why they're striking next week,

Really? I've never seen a doctor working as a PA. I'm not sure it would be allowed as they haven't done a PA course.

Fair enough, I didn't know that so will put my hands up to being wrong.

But the point is I've worked with load of psychologists and none have used the title Dr at work - presumably because they realise that it's confusing.

For example (just picking some bits off the internet at random) this article doesn't refer to Dr Ruth Dennis, and she presumably has a doctorate https://www.westlondon.nhs.uk/news/latest-news/finding-year-difficult-were-here-you-reach-out-free-nhs-talking-therapy-north-west-london

This NHS psychologist doesn't call herself dr https://www.linkedin.com/in/emma-carr-95048492/?originalSubdomain=uk

nor this one https://www.linkedin.com/in/emily-palmer-61078b28/?originalSubdomain=uk

so it certainly isn't ubiquitous that they use the title Dr.

And it's only 17 years ago that psychology training became a doctorate. So there will presumably be plenty of older psychologists without one.

Also, in most mental health teams, treatment is fairly fluid. Service users are normally seen by nurses in general, some of whom are therapy qualified, some of whom are nurse prescribers/ANPs. Nurses usually do the initial assessment/first assumed diagnosis and will involve a psychiatrist if they think the presentation is more complex medically or requires more detailed diagnostic work-or if medication is needed and they can’t prescribe. A service user will be referred to the psychologist if more complex psychological intervention is needed-or the nurse/psychiatrist needs advice. The hierarchy is much flatter than in physical healthcare and so generally the use of “doctor” here is much less misleading than in other clinical settings.

In my surgery physicians associated are mainly qualified GPs (usually women) who don’t want to work as a GP. Just ask the practice manager.

As I have clearly said I multiple posts, this is the reason why it's important for healthcare professionals to say what their role is and not to assume that doctor means medical doctor. Using the title Dr does not mean you are representing yourself as a medical doctor, it isn't a crime, it is common in some areas.

I agree that the situation described by the op is misleading, but if we were used to every professions saying "I am Dr X, I am the GP" or whatever, there'd be no room for any confusion.

In a large community mental health team there will be a consultant psychiatrist, under which are multiple more junior psychiatrists and often medical students, as well as a nursing team leader and multiple mental health nurses and student nurses. A long side this there will be clinical psychologist under which are multiple associate psychologists and trainee psychologists. Both the clinical psychologist and the psychiatrists can use the title “doctor” as a representation of a minimum of 7 years training; a medical degree for the doctors, undergrad+masters+clinical training for the psychologist.

Read more of gov.Uk if in doubt. It carries a prison sentence.

No you do not, you need a 3 year postgraduate doctorate (taught) qualification to be a chartered Psychologist, some go on to do a research based PhD but the 2 are different.

To represent yourself as a medical doctor when you are not is a criminal offence. I assume psychologists make it clear they can't order you a scan or blood tests ?

Yes, you need a PhD to be a clinical psychologist.

All types of NHS psychologists have a PhD. That is their standard qualification.

Maybe have a look at your local mental health Trust staff lists - psychologists use the title dr.

So feel free to say you disagree with it, but that is what currently happens.

So, we need all healthcare professionals to introduce by name and role. It's the only way people can be sure who they are working with. The title "Dr" is not a guarantee someone is a medical doctor.

Oh I thought they had phds to be able to work as a clinical psychologist, my mistake.

But to be a psychologist you don't need to have a PhD nor are you a qualified doctor, therefore it is inaccurate for them to introduce themselves as a doctor. Even for those with a doctorate it muddies the water in a clinical setting imo, I've never worked with one who has referred to themselves as doctor.

None of the psychologists I have worked with in my 20 years in the NHS have used the title doctor.

No they aren't. Sorry. Unless they have a PhD, which many won't, they aren't a doctor. They are a psychologist. Two different things.

Psychologist I can definitely understand. If I saw a psychologist in a health setting I would want to know I was seeing a fully qualified one and to be honest if htey didn't introduce themselves as dr I'd be worried I was seeing some sort of psychology associate. Plus I wouldn't be seeing them about a chest infection, etc.

But, I guess we'll have to agree to differ on the subject. You can continue to google things that you feel support your argument, but I'm 18 years into my profession in mental health services, so I'm going to go from my fairly extensive experience I'm afraid.

I guarantee that it is absolutely normal for a psychologist to use the title of Dr in a healthcare setting. I understand you are unhappy about it, but it happens and is absolutely normal and current standard practice. They are both an allied health professional and a doctor.

I work in a hospital as a midwife. I'm starting my phd, when I've finished it I will NOT introduce myself to women as Dr Vixen. It would be confusing and nobody needs to know.

Taken me a while to get back to the thread & I think many people are saying similar - you don’t sound happy with your care and you feel misled, reasonable complaint or comment to practice manager copying in lead GP then. I wouldn’t necessarily going in very angry, save that for hearing their response…

Actually no, PAs have been forced on us by funding that can only be used for this purpose. Most GPs wouldn't have them if we had a choice. And if we could actually recruit more drs

@TrishTrix my DS is currently doing a residency in the US, having recently graduated from medical school. He decided against anesthesiology for his specialty because it is fast being taken over by nurse anesthetists who work under the supervision of a doctor. They are hospital employees, salaried, with insurance falling under hospital malpractice, whereas the Dr (MD or DO) who ultimately carries the can for any mistakes made is usually part of a private practice group that funds its own malpractice insurance, working in the hospital but not directly employed by the hospital.

I'm guessing a Physician's Associate is a part-trained 'sort of doctor on the cheap?'

We patients really don't seem to matter any more.