To think divorce is selfish?

@Arabels Very true.

You're right there, but so often in abusive relationships, the abused can't see the wood for the trees. So they are paddling furiously like a duck, but not having the time to step back and properly evaluate what's happening. Abusers are unfortunately very 'skilled' at what they do, and they really dgaf about the colateral damage.

Tbh I think that’s the dizzying thing about parenting in general-you never really know if you’re getting it right, or how to judge decisions.

I think there can be some very glaring signs that you're getting it wrong.

Tbh I think that’s the dizzying thing about parenting in general-you never really know if you’re getting it right, or how to judge decisions. This is why cultural norms are so helpful as a template, and why we’re struggling with this now-norms have shifted very very quickly.

I grew up in a 1 parent family in the 80s when staying together for the sake of the children was de rigueur. Shortly after we left school and went to uni or left home, about half my school friends’ parents split up.

Financially they did, on the whole, much better than me. And that has a massive impact on life outcomes. But for the girls, more than half ended up in abusive marriages one way or another - violence, financial control, alcoholics, etc. It seemed to have less impact on the boys. I don’t know how much that was down to their parents staying together for their sake, but they all seemed in able to articulate the idea that their own priority should be themselves rather than their partner’s.

I’m in my 50s now and I frequently wonder about this. I don’t think the truth is straightforward. I do think children are generally materially and emotionally (at least in the immediate term) better off in a two parent family. I don’t think women are obliged to sacrifice the whole of their lives to their children, or even the whole of their lives while theIt children are 18. I do think, as adults, we are obliged to give our children’s best interest more weight but I don’t know how to judge what that weighting should be and I think totally ignoring our own interests entirely sends our children signals about a woman’s place that is toxic for society in general and for our daughters in particular.

I often wish my parents had divorced. I wouldn’t have had some of the lovely things I did, but then I wouldn’t know that if they had.
Instead they have stayed together into their 60s, have a horrible relationship and are both pretty miserable. It’s also massively affected me - as the youngest I was there for the longest through the worst bits - in the way that I am with relationships, which is something I’ve only recognised in my 30s, when it might be too late to do anything about it.
Kids will all face emotional upheaval at some point in their lives.

Which kids are going to say they are happy mum and dad stuck it out for them? When should they divorce, OP? After Promary school? Secondary? University? After the kids' wedding? Grandchildren? Never? There is never a good time to get divorced.

My friends parents were married and seemed like nice normal parents. Divorced when my friend was 20ish. She went right off the rails as she had access to drink and party drugs. So specifically, when should her parents have divorced?

It is scary. I can see why people use kids as an excuse to be passive and do nothing.

I think I told everybody Im terrified. I left, but I was terrified of the future and it took 9 years before I woke up (not literally) and realised, I have a secure place to live, I have a secure job, I actually have some small savings so I could weather losing this secure job and find another before I lost my home, my DC are in school, my health is good, I have a pension.............................

But my five year financial recovery plan took 9 years and yeh, at times i experienced anxiety about the future.

People who dont like the idea of divorce often consider the 2.4 kids set up the ideal. It wasnt for us. My brother and I had a close age gap and we fought and competed constantly. Nothing my parents did to create that environment but we were just toxic to eachother.

With space and step siblings, we had a much more mellow relationship.

Even leaving aside the divorce, my brother and I didnt thrive in our relationship. More siblings and less intensity was better for us.

More people use kids and other things as an excuse to stay.

My parents divorced messy at the time (affair) but both married their next partner and have been together with them for 20+ years. Obviously divorces and step families have bumps in the road but I now have a huge family, 4 parents, lots of step siblings and we are all so close. Best thing my parents ever did.

You haven't got a clue what you're talking about OP.

Same, so glad I showed my dc a boy and a girl thar you do not stick around for more.

I divorced my ex when I found out about his affair. Had I stayed it would have shown DD that it was ok for a woman to be treated badly my a man and I was sure as hell not going to convey that message to her, both she and I are worth so much more than that.

Sometimes it's selfish to not divorce.

The adults don't want the upheaval to affect them so they use the kids as an excuse to stay even though it's not really in their best interests.

Generally if a couple are at the point of considering divorce then things are bad, if they don't divorce then things are actually likely to get worse and more intolerable as time goes on, not stay the same.

I agree.

Staying is the easiest choice, it's the weak choice. It takes strength to walk away and put your children and their right to a happy home, not a miserable one, first.

Staying married is more selfish because you are doing more harm to the kids by staying and creating a miserable atmosphere for them.

That’s abusive as well. If selfish behaviour or neglect constantly hurt the wife or the children, it is still abuse.

My father wasn't abusive but he was a serial cheater. I'm bloody glad my parents divorced.

I think comments like 'kids are resilient' are things divorcing parents say to reassure themselves that their kids will be ok. In reality, divorce is NOT ok for kids but may still be the best option, if managed carefully. No child deserves to live in an unhappy home.
I think you are underestimating the hugeness of the decision to separate. It IS a brave thing to do, especially for women, because being a single parent is tough. You'll be poor, lonely and excluded from a lot of social situations that really do favour nuclear families.
I don't believe for a moment that mothers, especially, decide to divorce for selfish reasons. They decide because they are deeply unhappy and because it's the only solution they can see that will improve the lives of everybody in the family. It feels unnecessarily cruel to blame parents when they are almost certainly already blaming themselves more bitterly.

Of course, for better or worse you know???

FFS! That shit… I know a woman who refused to let her husband had a divorce for 10 years as “they made her vows” even when he left her for another woman, set home with her and had more children with her.

It comes a time when the less selfish thing for you and your children is to let go, you can imagine the drama forcing the man to stay married to her. Absolutely bonkers… but within their vows.

Fair play to you for being so honest. I left my husband for similar reasons to your colleague and there was a whiff of that from some people alright. Again, often from those themselves in less than ideal marriages. Interestingly enough, it was those in the happiest marriages who were amongst the most supportive, maybe because they know what a good marriage can be.

Yes that makes sense - there may be a lot of projecting going on.

I’m really proud of having the strength to walk away from a terrible marriage- it means that our lives are all so much better 11 years on than they would have been had I stayed.

I really admire your honesty.

An unpopular opinion I have is that women often say they're staying for the children when really they're staying for the lifestyle. That's understandable, especially these days, but it isn't fair on the children to pretend it's for their benefit when it isn't, and it could make them feel very guilty (though it isn't their fault).

But it can take a while for people to be honest with themselves about their true feelings.

Yes, that’s why I asked the question upthread.

I remember being so unhappy in my marriage, but feeling things weren’t bad enough to justify me leaving.

A close colleague then left her husband because they had grown apart, no sex, nothing to talk about, she just didn’t love him any more. God I was brutal about it. Full of opinion about how she should be trying harder for the kids etc. I was an utter bitch, and all because I was jealous that she had the guts to do what I couldn’t.