Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Flexible working revoked - help!!

410 replies

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 05/08/2023 07:59

Looking for a sounding board for a problem I'm having at work. Not sure what to do really...

So, I had a baby and returned after a 9 month maternity leave, but when my son was 5 months old, I discussed my return to work with my boss (male).

(I work as a PA for two people who own and run the company)

I asked to return to work 5 days a week, but to work 2 days from home and also if I could leave at 4.30pm instead of my contracted finish of 5pm in order to pick up my son from nursery. I was told that none of this was a problem and that I didn't need to be in when my boss wasn't in (he also worked 3 days a week in the office).

So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.

After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them.

At this point, two other women were having their working from home revoked, but they had had it for 11 and 14 years, and their children were in secondary school by this point.

In the discussions for this, my boss (female) had suggested to me that on the extra day I was being asked to work in the office, I could leave early. This was purely her idea and was even suggesting around lunchtime.

After all my protests, I was told they would get back to me...however 5 months later nobody had. As this was being requested to start in September, I approached my boss (female) last week to discuss it before my holiday, and her holiday. She seemed surprised, but thankful that I had put the wheels in motion and was making this happening and agreed that it had kind of been forgotten about (not by me, I can assure you!). When I then raised her idea of leaving early on the extra day in the office, she didn't seem to recall this conversation and actually seemed quite annoyed by it, asking "how early?". I suggested 3.30pm instead of 4.30pm, and as I could see that this request wasn't going down well, I suggested it be for the first 3 weeks to help my son settle in (as this also coincides with him moving to preschool).

She then said that we need to review my leaving at 4.30pm on other days, and would I be willing to leave at 5pm (my contracted time) instead. I said that it wasn't a case of being willing, but that if I left at that time, I wouldn't be able to make it to the nursery before they shut. She seemed in disbelief that it would take me that long to get home, but I pointed out that whilst Google might suggest it is an hour, that is if I hit all my connections and there is no traffic. In practice, this is never the case, and it it always takes me around 1 hour 20 mins.

Her reasoning for asking me to leave at 5pm was again, for parity across the office, but also in case her or my other boss need something urgent between 4.30-5pm. Whilst I understand this, in practice I don't think this is actually the case, as all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time. I can't believe that something urgent would be regularly happening in the last 30 mins of the day.

She also said that if they finish a meeting after 4.30pm and I am gone, they might need something, and it's not fair on other members of staff as it puts more pressure on them. Whilst this is true, I have been back through the diaries and in the 201 days I have worked back in the office, they have had meetings that have gone beyond 4.30pm 18 times. Also, they have never had someone come to the office for a meeting that starts after 4.30pm.

Therefore I feel that this isn't a reflection of what actually happens. I can't believe that they ask for very little all day, but in that last 30 mins something urgent comes up. She also acknowledged that I am on email my whole journey home, but it's if something happens that I am needed in person. She accepted the fact I work through my lunch, and from early morning until late evening on emails, but that it was not about total hours worked.

For context, my company are very anti flexible working. I joined 3 days before lockdown in 2020, and went on maternity leave in July 2021, so had spent a massive amount of my employment working from home. They are on a drive to get people back to the office and don't want anyone working from home. They recently conducted a staff survey, and in that almost every member of the office requested more flexibility with working from home. Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.

I am unsure as to whether I am being unreasonable, or if not, how hard to push on this - especially given that I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!

We are a small team and don't have an official HR department. We recently just got a freelance HR person in, but I'm unsure as to how much I trust them yet. Also, in my capacity as a PA I work very closely with my bosses and maintaining a good relationship is important. I'm not trying to rock the boat or get special privileges, but it's hard to make things work when the agreement keeps changing. I returned to work based on certain conditions and I set my life up around them.

Any advice would be so gratefully received as it is keeping me up at night!

Thank you!

OP posts:
vickylou78 · 06/08/2023 09:31

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 08:35

Yeah possibly, but why is working from the office going to cost £400?

No idea. But it's not why her employer s have asked her to return for more days..

Or they wouldn't of dawdled around for 5 months not doing anything. They want parity across the office. Read the OP.

Yes they may be saying its for parity across the staff but maybe they suspect the Op is working whilst children at home and are using it as a way of getting the situation resolved as may be easier to say everyone is treated the same than conduct a disciplinary with the Op.

But I am just guessing as font think the Op has said why it will cost £400 more.

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 08:35

Yeah possibly, but why is working from the office going to cost £400?

No idea. But it's not why her employer s have asked her to return for more days..

Or they wouldn't of dawdled around for 5 months not doing anything. They want parity across the office. Read the OP.

vickylou78 · 06/08/2023 08:09

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 08:04

That's awful if she's been working with children at home. I would do exactly as the employer has done and request they come back to the office.

That's not why OP 's employer has asked her to come back to the office.

And tbh it's not conclusive that's what has been happening.

Yeah possibly, but why is working from the office going to cost £400?

magicalkitty · 06/08/2023 08:06

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 08:04

That's awful if she's been working with children at home. I would do exactly as the employer has done and request they come back to the office.

That's not why OP 's employer has asked her to come back to the office.

And tbh it's not conclusive that's what has been happening.

Well the extra £400 that would result from her going back into the office an extra day is coming from somewhere.

4 extra days a month in nursery could easily mean an extra £400.

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 08:04

That's awful if she's been working with children at home. I would do exactly as the employer has done and request they come back to the office.

That's not why OP 's employer has asked her to come back to the office.

And tbh it's not conclusive that's what has been happening.

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 08:01

Women think that when they have a baby it suddenly gives them the right to not follow any work rules.

Utter b**ks obviously

vickylou78 · 06/08/2023 08:00

Oysterbabe · 06/08/2023 07:38

Because at present OP doesn't pay for nursery on the WFH days, she does a shitty job as both an employee and a parent on those days, and she will never return to confirm this.

Show quote history

That's what I was thinking. That's awful if she's been working with children at home. I would do exactly as the employer has done and request they come back to the office. It is not possible to do childcare and work effectively (I had to do it during lock down and the result was crap output at work and neglected bored children). if you are working effectively at home with children there, then surely the poor child is being neglected most of the day?

DrSbaitso · 06/08/2023 07:52

Brieandcamembert · 06/08/2023 07:46

So when you were "working from home" you were looking after your baby? I wouldn't allow that either.

Women think that when they have a baby it suddenly gives them the right to not follow any work rules.

Women think that when they have a baby it suddenly gives them the right to not follow any work rules.

You clearly haven't read what women have been saying all over the thread.

Brieandcamembert · 06/08/2023 07:46

So when you were "working from home" you were looking after your baby? I wouldn't allow that either.

Women think that when they have a baby it suddenly gives them the right to not follow any work rules.

Oysterbabe · 06/08/2023 07:38

vickylou78 · 06/08/2023 07:36

Why will childcare cost £400 more?

Because at present OP doesn't pay for nursery on the WFH days, she does a shitty job as both an employee and a parent on those days, and she will never return to confirm this.

vickylou78 · 06/08/2023 07:36

Why will childcare cost £400 more?

thereisnorightanswer · 06/08/2023 00:31

Yellowlegobrick · 05/08/2023 19:16

Hold on a minute, you've been denying that a PA needs to be flexible and here you are admitting you're on call when necessary. What if the flight you'd booked from Singapore was cancelled because of mechanical problems and you got the call at 11pm for help finding the best alternative and booking it? Of course you'd do it.

Eh? This is NOT expected of a PA! Ive never expected mine to be "on call" or to work beyond their contracted hours. They aren't paid anywhere near enough to warrant that. My friend is also the PA to a senior exec of a ftse 100 and does not work like this. At all.

If your PA isn't paid enough to work past their contracted hours... you're right, you're not paying them enough!

A PA should earn enough that underpaid overtime to meet the business need should not feel like a hardship.

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 00:24

But the OP logs off at 4.30 and doesn't expect to be bothered again.

Err Attention to detail required. She didn't say this .

Yellowlegobrick · 05/08/2023 19:16

Hold on a minute, you've been denying that a PA needs to be flexible and here you are admitting you're on call when necessary. What if the flight you'd booked from Singapore was cancelled because of mechanical problems and you got the call at 11pm for help finding the best alternative and booking it? Of course you'd do it.

Eh? This is NOT expected of a PA! Ive never expected mine to be "on call" or to work beyond their contracted hours. They aren't paid anywhere near enough to warrant that. My friend is also the PA to a senior exec of a ftse 100 and does not work like this. At all.

Yellowlegobrick · 05/08/2023 19:14

Honestly - leave. Asap. Companies like this only change when absolutely forced to because they simply can't attract staff any more.

You're request isn't excessive. You are asking for a little flex around the edges, they are being rigid without reason.

theyareonlynoodlesmichael · 05/08/2023 19:14

afishcalledbreanda · 05/08/2023 18:52

This means I am on call when they travel, are late at an event etc. Because flexibility works both ways. They know I can pick up and deal with an urgent matter when needed. If my boss needed flights to Singapore, I would not have been a good EA if for some bizarre reason they were flying the next day and I had not booked them by 4.30pm.

Hold on a minute, you've been denying that a PA needs to be flexible and here you are admitting you're on call when necessary. What if the flight you'd booked from Singapore was cancelled because of mechanical problems and you got the call at 11pm for help finding the best alternative and booking it? Of course you'd do it. But the OP logs off at 4.30 and doesn't expect to be bothered again. To be helpful she checks emails at 10pm once the baby's settled and again at 6am when she gets up for the baby, but that's her trying to show she's willing at times that suit her, not her employers.

Where does OP say she's not been flexible? IT IS HER IN HER OP

'So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.'

Have you been a PA? If my boss had a cancelled flight at 11pm he would not call me because then he knows to call the out-of-hours travel agent or he sorts himself out. He isnt a fucking baby. My job is to give him the tools - I am not a 24/7 servant.

Saverage · 05/08/2023 19:10

I'm an EA. My boss is in a different time zone, and also a night owl whereas I am not, so our schedule only overlaps by about 4 hours.

My work is largely self-directed (lengthy research and projects, monitor and fix scheduling problems, routine admin etc) so I don't need to be online the same time as him. It works perfectly. I sometimes clock off at 4.30pm (as I sometimes start very early or work at weekends) and just keep an eye out for emergencies. I might wake up to a few replies / queries from him on email, as in turn he may wake up to a few replies /queries from me.

OP, find another job, there are flexible PA jobs out there.

Hyppogriff · 05/08/2023 18:56

So you accept that you should be paid less in return?

afishcalledbreanda · 05/08/2023 18:52

This means I am on call when they travel, are late at an event etc. Because flexibility works both ways. They know I can pick up and deal with an urgent matter when needed. If my boss needed flights to Singapore, I would not have been a good EA if for some bizarre reason they were flying the next day and I had not booked them by 4.30pm.

Hold on a minute, you've been denying that a PA needs to be flexible and here you are admitting you're on call when necessary. What if the flight you'd booked from Singapore was cancelled because of mechanical problems and you got the call at 11pm for help finding the best alternative and booking it? Of course you'd do it. But the OP logs off at 4.30 and doesn't expect to be bothered again. To be helpful she checks emails at 10pm once the baby's settled and again at 6am when she gets up for the baby, but that's her trying to show she's willing at times that suit her, not her employers.

theyareonlynoodlesmichael · 05/08/2023 18:20

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 18:12

She has been told she cannot have something that other colleagues do not benefit from. Thats not how flexible working laws work. Shes allowed to ask for it and they cannot say 'because no one else is allowed' as a reason.

She is allowed to ask for it but they don't have to give it. They just have to consider it and give a reason if they can't allow it. And saying it isn't compatible with the business needs is a legitimate reason.

No, they do not have to give it but I would make them sit and explain to me why, and want evidence that they have actually consulted and looked at the impact or the business and as me, their employee. You cant just be told a flat 'No.'

But as I said earlier in my thread, its obviously not a well-managed company so I would be stopping any additional work, clocking off on the dot, not answering calls or emails outside of working hours, and doing only my exact JD while I looked for a better employer, which is what OP needs to consider doing.

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 18:12

She has been told she cannot have something that other colleagues do not benefit from. Thats not how flexible working laws work. Shes allowed to ask for it and they cannot say 'because no one else is allowed' as a reason.

She is allowed to ask for it but they don't have to give it. They just have to consider it and give a reason if they can't allow it. And saying it isn't compatible with the business needs is a legitimate reason.

theyareonlynoodlesmichael · 05/08/2023 18:09

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 17:48

Pregnant and screwed is not there to help women whose employers won't let them work from home in order to look after children at the same time and save on childcare costs.

OP hasn't been dismissed and she hasn't been discriminated against or treated differently to her colleagues. All she said was she was 'effectively' told but that probably just means they said her childcare costs are not their problem. And they're not.

She has been told she cannot have something that other colleagues do not benefit from. Thats not how flexible working laws work. Shes allowed to ask for it and they cannot say 'because no one else is allowed' as a reason.

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 17:58
  • Well in my organisation it would be gross misconduct so you'd be in a disciplinary first and then back in the office full time.

It's basically theft, if you think about it (or else child neglect which is worse).*

Agree. I have had employers who put it into the contract, and it clearly states it's gross misconduct and they will follow the disciplinary procedure if you do so.

I think most contracts have not been updated to include this clause (as there was less wfh pre-covid) but I'm sure it will be in more contracts in the future.

DisquietintheRanks · 05/08/2023 17:56

sunglassesonthetable · 05/08/2023 13:49

I don’t understand anyone thinking it’s reasonable to work from home
and be the childcare. You cannot do both things well at the same time.

Like I said I agree with that. Totally.

It's the way you described dealing with it that told me a lot.

Well in my organisation it would be gross misconduct so you'd be in a disciplinary first and then back in the office full time.

It's basically theft, if you think about it (or else child neglect which is worse).

magicalkitty · 05/08/2023 17:48

Pregnant and screwed is not there to help women whose employers won't let them work from home in order to look after children at the same time and save on childcare costs.

OP hasn't been dismissed and she hasn't been discriminated against or treated differently to her colleagues. All she said was she was 'effectively' told but that probably just means they said her childcare costs are not their problem. And they're not.