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Flexible working revoked - help!!

410 replies

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 05/08/2023 07:59

Looking for a sounding board for a problem I'm having at work. Not sure what to do really...

So, I had a baby and returned after a 9 month maternity leave, but when my son was 5 months old, I discussed my return to work with my boss (male).

(I work as a PA for two people who own and run the company)

I asked to return to work 5 days a week, but to work 2 days from home and also if I could leave at 4.30pm instead of my contracted finish of 5pm in order to pick up my son from nursery. I was told that none of this was a problem and that I didn't need to be in when my boss wasn't in (he also worked 3 days a week in the office).

So I returned to work with this set up and did absolutely everything to make this work, which included working through lunch breaks and responding to emails from 6am-10pm 7 days a week.

After 8 months of this being in place, I was told (in the middle of the office, not privately) that they were going to need to ask me to return to the office 4 days a week as they couldn't give me something they weren't giving to the rest of the staff. I was assured that this had nothing to do with my performance as they know I'm working all the time, but purely to do with what other people in the office are allowed.

I had many discussions with them about the impact of this on me, and that it would cost me almost an extra £400 in childcare costs per month, to which I was told effectively that if I can't afford to have kids, I shouldn't have them.

At this point, two other women were having their working from home revoked, but they had had it for 11 and 14 years, and their children were in secondary school by this point.

In the discussions for this, my boss (female) had suggested to me that on the extra day I was being asked to work in the office, I could leave early. This was purely her idea and was even suggesting around lunchtime.

After all my protests, I was told they would get back to me...however 5 months later nobody had. As this was being requested to start in September, I approached my boss (female) last week to discuss it before my holiday, and her holiday. She seemed surprised, but thankful that I had put the wheels in motion and was making this happening and agreed that it had kind of been forgotten about (not by me, I can assure you!). When I then raised her idea of leaving early on the extra day in the office, she didn't seem to recall this conversation and actually seemed quite annoyed by it, asking "how early?". I suggested 3.30pm instead of 4.30pm, and as I could see that this request wasn't going down well, I suggested it be for the first 3 weeks to help my son settle in (as this also coincides with him moving to preschool).

She then said that we need to review my leaving at 4.30pm on other days, and would I be willing to leave at 5pm (my contracted time) instead. I said that it wasn't a case of being willing, but that if I left at that time, I wouldn't be able to make it to the nursery before they shut. She seemed in disbelief that it would take me that long to get home, but I pointed out that whilst Google might suggest it is an hour, that is if I hit all my connections and there is no traffic. In practice, this is never the case, and it it always takes me around 1 hour 20 mins.

Her reasoning for asking me to leave at 5pm was again, for parity across the office, but also in case her or my other boss need something urgent between 4.30-5pm. Whilst I understand this, in practice I don't think this is actually the case, as all day I am asked for very little and I am the proactive one asking if they need things all the time. I can't believe that something urgent would be regularly happening in the last 30 mins of the day.

She also said that if they finish a meeting after 4.30pm and I am gone, they might need something, and it's not fair on other members of staff as it puts more pressure on them. Whilst this is true, I have been back through the diaries and in the 201 days I have worked back in the office, they have had meetings that have gone beyond 4.30pm 18 times. Also, they have never had someone come to the office for a meeting that starts after 4.30pm.

Therefore I feel that this isn't a reflection of what actually happens. I can't believe that they ask for very little all day, but in that last 30 mins something urgent comes up. She also acknowledged that I am on email my whole journey home, but it's if something happens that I am needed in person. She accepted the fact I work through my lunch, and from early morning until late evening on emails, but that it was not about total hours worked.

For context, my company are very anti flexible working. I joined 3 days before lockdown in 2020, and went on maternity leave in July 2021, so had spent a massive amount of my employment working from home. They are on a drive to get people back to the office and don't want anyone working from home. They recently conducted a staff survey, and in that almost every member of the office requested more flexibility with working from home. Therefore they are begrudgingly reviewing it, but it seems they are missing the point that flexible working doesn't have to be the exact same conditions for everyone and that it is a case by case scenario.

I am unsure as to whether I am being unreasonable, or if not, how hard to push on this - especially given that I was told by my boss (male) that he asked if he could get rid of me when I told him I was pregnant!!

We are a small team and don't have an official HR department. We recently just got a freelance HR person in, but I'm unsure as to how much I trust them yet. Also, in my capacity as a PA I work very closely with my bosses and maintaining a good relationship is important. I'm not trying to rock the boat or get special privileges, but it's hard to make things work when the agreement keeps changing. I returned to work based on certain conditions and I set my life up around them.

Any advice would be so gratefully received as it is keeping me up at night!

Thank you!

OP posts:
SpainToday · 06/08/2023 10:35

I thought the OP was just getting fed up with the ever moving goal posts? I don’t have young children and even without childcare to factor in, this would really p*ss me off

Hufflepods · 06/08/2023 10:31

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 09:54

You're so sure I am working from home with a toddler and have been caught out. To clarify...I am not, and I have not.

There’s no point lying about this in your thread, it’s pretty obvious you are. You are the one complaining that coming into the office an extra day a week will cost you £400 a month in childcare.

thinkkook · 06/08/2023 10:27

Sounds like a nightmare workplace! Misogyny and lying. I'd be quietly looking for a new more flexible job.

Good luck!

AnneAnon · 06/08/2023 10:23

One of the more defensive OP updates I’ve seen 😳

vickylou78 · 06/08/2023 10:21

Apologies to Op if we have misunderstood. But you can see why we would assume childcare cost were going up by £400 and this you stated as one of the reasons why you didn't want to work from the office.

I understand why working at home is more convenient as reduces commuting time and therefore time you need to pay for at nursery and after school clubs etc. But I don't understand why you couldn't just explain this? And the £400.

But work shouldn't go back on a genuine flexible working request. Was it all signed off and approved? I changed my hours when I came back from mat leave but it was all done very formally. I would take it up with your boss and if they aren't willing to accept your flexible working request was formal and approved and you can continue with it, I guess you'll need do find an alternative employment.

magicalkitty · 06/08/2023 10:09
  • Why is this any of your business? Why are you pushing so hard to know? This was NEVER my issue or what I was looking for advice on. I had put it in my post to explain the story from start to finish.

You don't seem to have an issue with my boss asking if he could sack me for being pregnant, just if I am shit at my job, as a mother, or why I will be paying more for childcare.*

Your first post quoted the £400 figure as a main reason for not working to work an extra day in the office. That's £100 a day so naturally people are curious why.

As for your boss, if he did say this then that should have been a massive red flag from the start and I'm unsure why you wanted to continue to work for him? I think the best thing you could do is look for another job, honestly.

GoingGoingUp · 06/08/2023 10:06

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 10:02

Does it? Sound like I'm back tracking...or clarifying?

It sounds like you’re back tracking.

But taking what you say at face value, then you need to put in a formal flexible working request. And what works in your favour is you have had this set up for 5 months and it’s worked, so they need a really good reason why they can’t accommodate it any further.

But you really need to make it formal, as then it’s a change to your contract and they have to accommodate.

Everydayimhuffling · 06/08/2023 10:04

Off the top of my head, 3 reasons it might cost a lot more to go into the office and lose the early finish on one day:

  • someone else has child (grandparent, other parent etc) but needs to hand over child for shift work
  • extra cost for an early start or late finish at nursery
  • preschool can't accommodate these changes, necessitating a whole extra layer of childcare

None of this is relevant to what the OP asked

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 10:02

GoingGoingUp · 06/08/2023 09:59

Then why is it an extra £400 in childcare. Your update claimed you hadn’t been found out, thereby confirming there was something to be found out about. It does sound like you’re back tracking.

Does it? Sound like I'm back tracking...or clarifying?

OP posts:
Perthsmurf · 06/08/2023 10:02

OP, if you’ve told your work that coming in an additional 1 day per week will cost you £400 extra then they will almost certainly have assumed that you’ve been using WFH as childcare. It would certainly worry me if I was your manager.

FWIW I think you have your answer, if you feel that they keep moving the goalposts then it’s clearly not working out. And you cannot sustain a 7 day week, that will lead to burnout. For the sake of your wellbeing, find another job. It may not pay as much but the level of exhaustion you must be experiencing working through lunches and answering emails late at night isn’t in anyone’s interest. Meanwhile, I suggest you work only your contracted hours, take a lunch break and switch off once home.

magicalkitty · 06/08/2023 10:01

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 09:57

Hey, lovely @magicalkitty - how about you read some of what I have been saying before you go in with your challenges.

  1. I am not working from home with a toddler
  2. I have not been found out
  3. I am not neglecting my child, nor my job
  4. My issue is agreements being changed constantly

Why are you being so vicious? Is everything ok?

Ok, so why does it cost you an extra £400? This figure you stated is why it seems you are.

You have had lots of advice about handling flexible working requests and agreements. You would need to have it in writing. Although in my experience employers can change pretty much anything as long as they give you notice. There is the grievance and tribunal route if they have handled it wrong, but often that is more hassle than it's worth and a long and mentally difficult process. Often it's easier to just cut your losses and get another job.

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 10:00

magicalkitty · 06/08/2023 09:55

So why would it cost an extra £400 to go back to the office an extra day a week?

Why is this any of your business? Why are you pushing so hard to know? This was NEVER my issue or what I was looking for advice on. I had put it in my post to explain the story from start to finish.

You don't seem to have an issue with my boss asking if he could sack me for being pregnant, just if I am shit at my job, as a mother, or why I will be paying more for childcare.

OP posts:
GoingGoingUp · 06/08/2023 10:00

How on earth is @magicalkitty being vicious? Her posts are very reasonable and polite.

GoingGoingUp · 06/08/2023 09:59

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 09:57

Hey, lovely @magicalkitty - how about you read some of what I have been saying before you go in with your challenges.

  1. I am not working from home with a toddler
  2. I have not been found out
  3. I am not neglecting my child, nor my job
  4. My issue is agreements being changed constantly

Why are you being so vicious? Is everything ok?

Then why is it an extra £400 in childcare. Your update claimed you hadn’t been found out, thereby confirming there was something to be found out about. It does sound like you’re back tracking.

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 09:57

Hey, lovely @magicalkitty - how about you read some of what I have been saying before you go in with your challenges.

  1. I am not working from home with a toddler
  2. I have not been found out
  3. I am not neglecting my child, nor my job
  4. My issue is agreements being changed constantly

Why are you being so vicious? Is everything ok?

OP posts:
magicalkitty · 06/08/2023 09:55

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 09:54

You're so sure I am working from home with a toddler and have been caught out. To clarify...I am not, and I have not.

So why would it cost an extra £400 to go back to the office an extra day a week?

magicalkitty · 06/08/2023 09:54

Literally no employer would be okay with an employee 'working' from home while looking after a young child. It's one thing if they are older and occupying themself, a completely different situation if they are a toddler!

They are paying you a full day's salary but you won't be giving the job a full day's attention. Either you neglect your job, or you neglect your child.

And no, checking emails from 6am to 10pm to make up for it, does not make up for it unless you don't have set work hours. We would all like to work when and how we want, but most of us have contracts with set hours during which employers expect your work to be the sole focus.

You are lucky they are only asking you to come back to the office and extra day and not launching disciplinary action tbh. My former employer was very strict about this and it would be a sackable offence.

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 09:54

You're so sure I am working from home with a toddler and have been caught out. To clarify...I am not, and I have not.

OP posts:
GoingGoingUp · 06/08/2023 09:50

I also suspect they know that’s what’s happening, and that’s what they’re trying to stop, using the “same deal for everyone” as an excuse.

GoingGoingUp · 06/08/2023 09:49

So you are looking after your child when you should be working…

You say you haven’t been found out, only a matter of time before you are. I’ve had to do the odd day when DS is sick and my back up option isn’t available, and I’m open about it, but it’s still impossible to keep him quiet whilst I work.

magicalkitty · 06/08/2023 09:49

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 09:45

Good morning everyone!

Cor blimey, a lot of replies to go through! Thank you to everyone for replying - some really good advice in there. I have spoken to Pregnant Then Screwed before - they are great, but yes, they are closed until September. I've not heard of Working Families, so will definitely give them a shout. I also think formalising my request is a great idea - that protects me, by also means both parties have it in writing. And nice that a lot of other PA's understand the dynamics around our work and that if an employer is willing, it can definitely be flexible. I think once things settle I will look for something else. I don't want to move, but ultimately I would like to work for a more forward thinking company - in many ways, not just flexible working. I think moving right now wouldn't be right, but it definitely has made me think.

To the person that took umbridge with me stating one boss was male, and one was female, this was to differentiate between who said what - as in, different messages. It certainly wasn't a remark on different sexes behaving differently.

To the MANY people who are concerned with why I will spend an extra £400 a month on childcare, or where the father is - both are completely irrelevant. This was not part of my question, nor was I requesting advice on this. It was merely part of my back story. Being told I NEED to clarify this...why do I need to? My personal circumstances are exactly that...personal.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly - my issue has always been that I am trying to build in shifting sand. I set things up for my work and my family, and then they keep getting moved and revoked, which obviously changes things dramatically for me in many ways. When you return to work after having a baby, you work out if it is feasible and have discussions with your employer as to how this will work. I was assured that none of what I was asking for was a problem, so I set my life up around this. If things keep getting changed and become completely different, perhaps I wouldn't have returned to this post having a baby - who knows, but I need to keep changing my set up, which isn't the easiest thing to do. It's not a willingness not to be flexible, but some things are impossible to change presently.

For the people who think I am doing a shitty job, both at work and as a parent, well...what lovely things to say. To make such statements are incredibly nasty and hurtful. It also shows a complete lack of understanding and actual human kindness. As I said when I posted, my employer has assured me that none of this is based on the quality of my work, it is purely about giving everyone the same deal. I would argue that allowing people to do it for 11 and 14 years isn't actually giving everyone the same deal, but hey ho! And no, I haven't been 'found out' that I am looking after a toddler whilst working from home and ordered back to the office on this, nor am I someone who has had kids and expects the world to revolve around them - jeeeez! I merely would like agreements stuck to, when I have been told changing them is nothing to do with me and my work.

Oh, and for all the delightful comments about me not returning and "I wonder why" - I'm so sorry, I hadn't realised that I was required to respond to this straight away. The reason why, to answer your wonderings, is because I was with my son all day yesterday, and having never posted on Mumsnet before, I didn't know whether or not I would actually get any replies, and then it took quite a while to go through them all.

For the other people who have been through similar, I'm sending lots of love. It's not easy is it? More and more employers are understanding the value of flexible working - not just for parents and carers, but for society, however many are still left in the dark ages with old fashioned views on this.

So do you look after your child while you wfh, or is he in childcare on those days?

It is relevant because if you are indeed doing that, that will likely be why your employer wants you back in the office.

Sugarfree23 · 06/08/2023 09:47

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 08:35

Yeah possibly, but why is working from the office going to cost £400?

No idea. But it's not why her employer s have asked her to return for more days..

Or they wouldn't of dawdled around for 5 months not doing anything. They want parity across the office. Read the OP.

Could be a combination of factors why its becoming more of an issue 5 mths in, the child getting older, napping less, becoming more mobile, no longer content to sit in a playpen for long periods of time, needing more stimulating.

The £400 has to relate to extra nursery days.

There have been many threads where new mums have thought that could get away with WFH with babies / toddlers those who've done in during lockdown all say the same thing, it's impossible, don't even think about it.

Cracklecrack · 06/08/2023 09:45

I would look for something else. They have left things 5 months with no answer, had private conversations in public. Being expected to do emails 6am to 10pm is ridiculous .

Tiredofbeingtired1 · 06/08/2023 09:45

Good morning everyone!

Cor blimey, a lot of replies to go through! Thank you to everyone for replying - some really good advice in there. I have spoken to Pregnant Then Screwed before - they are great, but yes, they are closed until September. I've not heard of Working Families, so will definitely give them a shout. I also think formalising my request is a great idea - that protects me, by also means both parties have it in writing. And nice that a lot of other PA's understand the dynamics around our work and that if an employer is willing, it can definitely be flexible. I think once things settle I will look for something else. I don't want to move, but ultimately I would like to work for a more forward thinking company - in many ways, not just flexible working. I think moving right now wouldn't be right, but it definitely has made me think.

To the person that took umbridge with me stating one boss was male, and one was female, this was to differentiate between who said what - as in, different messages. It certainly wasn't a remark on different sexes behaving differently.

To the MANY people who are concerned with why I will spend an extra £400 a month on childcare, or where the father is - both are completely irrelevant. This was not part of my question, nor was I requesting advice on this. It was merely part of my back story. Being told I NEED to clarify this...why do I need to? My personal circumstances are exactly that...personal.

Perhaps I didn't explain myself properly - my issue has always been that I am trying to build in shifting sand. I set things up for my work and my family, and then they keep getting moved and revoked, which obviously changes things dramatically for me in many ways. When you return to work after having a baby, you work out if it is feasible and have discussions with your employer as to how this will work. I was assured that none of what I was asking for was a problem, so I set my life up around this. If things keep getting changed and become completely different, perhaps I wouldn't have returned to this post having a baby - who knows, but I need to keep changing my set up, which isn't the easiest thing to do. It's not a willingness not to be flexible, but some things are impossible to change presently.

For the people who think I am doing a shitty job, both at work and as a parent, well...what lovely things to say. To make such statements are incredibly nasty and hurtful. It also shows a complete lack of understanding and actual human kindness. As I said when I posted, my employer has assured me that none of this is based on the quality of my work, it is purely about giving everyone the same deal. I would argue that allowing people to do it for 11 and 14 years isn't actually giving everyone the same deal, but hey ho! And no, I haven't been 'found out' that I am looking after a toddler whilst working from home and ordered back to the office on this, nor am I someone who has had kids and expects the world to revolve around them - jeeeez! I merely would like agreements stuck to, when I have been told changing them is nothing to do with me and my work.

Oh, and for all the delightful comments about me not returning and "I wonder why" - I'm so sorry, I hadn't realised that I was required to respond to this straight away. The reason why, to answer your wonderings, is because I was with my son all day yesterday, and having never posted on Mumsnet before, I didn't know whether or not I would actually get any replies, and then it took quite a while to go through them all.

For the other people who have been through similar, I'm sending lots of love. It's not easy is it? More and more employers are understanding the value of flexible working - not just for parents and carers, but for society, however many are still left in the dark ages with old fashioned views on this.

OP posts:
GoingGoingUp · 06/08/2023 09:35

sunglassesonthetable · 06/08/2023 08:04

That's awful if she's been working with children at home. I would do exactly as the employer has done and request they come back to the office.

That's not why OP 's employer has asked her to come back to the office.

And tbh it's not conclusive that's what has been happening.

OP hasn’t come back to confirm, and I suspect that’s because it’s true. She wrote a lengthy post for advice and hasn’t returned.

It also makes sense why she feels the need to be checking emails from
first thing in the morning to last thing at night - to make up for not working on her work from home days.

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